What tactics work best for you (German Campaign)

[Paulverisor64]

I've finally had time to complete my 1st mission as the Germans. This post may draw more response from people who have played the German campaign, yet some tactics may work across the board.

I have had several trial runs before I did something that worked for me. (I've started this post because I'm thinking there probably are better ways to do this)

I found that there was at least one approach that was heavily mined and in bringing forward my tanks I always incurred damaged and occasionally a destroyed tank. My light armored vehicles would always get heavily targetted because they were easier to take out.

I tried another approach of pre-bombing the enemy trenches with mortar fire, but they couldn't be counted on to hit anything.

Also I noted that as soon as I get to the anti-tank trench that it triggered the enemy ground attack aircraft. Which would disable my tanks and half tracks.

What I ended up doing was taking a very deliberate and methodical approach to wiping out one trouble spot at a time.

I really love the Wespe; yes I ran out of ammo but they are great for high value targetting. I fired from the tall hill which was a great vantage point, being sure to use a slight raise in the hill to hide my attack. I focussed on the enemy artillery pieces. I landed one or 2 shots in each area that might hold an artillery piece.

Once I felt confident I sufficiently weakened the enemy I moved my tanks forward. I abandoned flanking because my 1st attempts were disasterous; especially the middle approach which was mined heavily.

I led with my more expendible tanks to the left approach.

This brought on the air attack which I had a mobile AA gun to counter as well as an 88 gun. Maybe I'm wrong but it didn't appear that the 88 was actually attacking the air craft. (I thought it was a flak gun). I do think this did succeed in drawing the focus away from my tanks somewhat. Both guns survived but the crews were basically eliminated. I had a squad of infantry ready to man the abandoned guns.

My early bombardment with the Wespe left some guns intact, but my tanks outnumbered the remaining guns in all skirmishes.

Once I removed visible opposition I brought my half track with infantry and towed gun up to clear the trenches.

Basically all the way through I started with initial bombardment, suppressed the remaining mounted MG's with my tanks, and cleaned up with infantry.

I only flanked the enemy on one end. I attacked on the easy approach, and enveloped the enemy as I pushed East across the map.

When the enemy tanks appeared I then was glad I had my one artillery piece (that I thought was an 88 but maybe I'm wrong). On it's high position it really helped out in repelling the invading enemy armor.

This was my experience and what worked for me. (At least in the 1st conflict)

Here is the part in this thread where I ask "What works best for you?"

Is it possible to storm the enemy position in force using Blitzkrieg tactics or does the enemy's defensive stance with mines, field guns and tank traps negate this possibility?

Have you found a good mix of units in battle, if so what tactics do you employ with them?

Have you been able to mobilize your entire battle force into action at once or do you play this more like chess; one piece at a time. What have you been able to achieve doing it this way?

I do have a configurable gamepad which I could easily group my units and actions but so far I am finding it more effective to concentrate on one area at a time.

There must be several approaches to achieve success, I'd like to unfix my mind from the way I am doing things and hear how you prefer to engage in battle.

[phil stanbridge]

Hi Paul

Okay my opinion for what it's worth. I'm quite a way through the German campaign on 'normal' and morale.

There are definitely several ways to go about each mission and that very much depends on your force makeup. I have found without question the only real way to defeat the enemy is to use the heaviest cats at your disposal. So that means using your Tigers and Panthers from the outset. But generally I opt for a tank heavy battle-group, with some infantry support. More about my OOB later. Always, always keep these tanks at distance, and have them hull down if possible, front facing. There is very little in the Russian arsenal that can penetrate the armour of both tanks from a distance in '43 so that is your advantage. If you advance these tanks into the infantry lines they become vulnerable. I lost a Tiger to an RPG! Use the smaller and more mobile PzIII's for close-up in your face infantry support. PzIII N in particular are great anti-infantry tanks with a nice amount of 75mm HE rounds. I think they might even have smoke rounds - or maybe that is the PzIV. But be aware there armour is weaker, so try and soften up the defences first.

Regards the defences, hit them with anything you have - 75mm howitzers are great at softening the blow, and quite accurate, as are mortars although they are less reliable. If you can 'occupy' enemy mortars and AT guns in-game they have huge amounts of ammunition and there's nothing better than knocking out enemy defences with their own equipment. Your ammunition is a precious commodity. Be aware that as the campaign progresses your men 'gain' experience. The mortar and howitzer crews will become better and faster. They will 'spot' better. It's worth looking after your crews in this respect. Same applies to the tank crews. I have one elite Tiger crew, with Knights Cross 1st class, and they are 'uber'. They can spot and knock out in one round now which is particularly handy.

My OOB varies depending on the mission obviously - I do carry some light skinned vehicles which are useful as AAA. I tend to have at least one light vehicle with a 20mm gun set to HE in case of air attack, but he can also be useful in the scouting role, although as you point out, they are next to useless at the outset as they are targetted by enemy mortars and AT guns which are very difficult to spot. If i do carry one of these I use them on the rear lines, near my mortars/howitzers. I try not to expose them, although they can be useful for mopping up towards the end of the mission.

I find the 251/1's and halftracks practically useless in this game. They are targetted by everything from the outset. I tend to ditch them and buy either a AAA or a SP or tank or something with more value.

Focus on one point at a time as you rightly point out. Don't use all your force at one time, and try and keep some armour and some infantry back. You will need them later. Where possible keep all units out of play in cover - this helps prevent them being spotted by aircraft.

I can't use Blitzkrieg at all in this game - it is suicide. You may get a few units to a point quickly, but without any long term plan they are sitting ducks. It pays to play this game very slowly.

Hope some of this helps!

[Knokke]

I still have to get past the first german mission of the campaign, due to frame rates becoming so low that the game is unplayable after a while, so my considerations are based only from what experience I could get with this first mission.

As to my order of battle:

I too think that one should use its heaviest weapons right from the beginning. At least one Tiger is a must have (this will allow the crew to build some experience, hopefully, and it is your most resilient asset, so it's well worth the points investment). Next, I'll field several Panthers, for the same reasons, and because they're cheaper. I'll keep this lot well toward the rear, in a hull down position. Their powerfull guns will be able to damage the ennemy from there while they'll almost be impervious to ennemy fire, except the occasional track damage. For the remaining tank slots, I'll fill them with an occasional Pz-IV and mostly Pz-III. The really good tanks, I'll use only from a distance, to keep them from arm. The lighter tanks I'll use as close infantry support during the attack, but only after the ennemy has been softened. I'll favor the lightest tanks because they've more ammunition than a Panther. I'll have them expend most of their HE ammo load trying to soften ennemy defense before moving closer at a range where they'll be more vulnerable.

I'll take one SdKfz-251/2 as mortar support (not that it's very accurate (helpful), but it has a lot of ammo, and can land some lucky shots)

Then I'll take two LeIG18 who will be used to soften the ennemy defences, remaining in the rear well hidden. I'll keep them apart from the rest of my troops, and apart from each other too, as I don't want anyone to trigger an unwelcome mortar attack near them. They're great because they're quite accurate, can provide indirect fire from virtually any position, and have a lot of ammo. I would favor the 75mm guns rather than the SPGs because they've a higher ammo supply. 24 round for a Wespe is not much. I wish ToW2 Kursk would allow us to choose some ammunition carriers to replenish the ammo loadout of the SPGs. At least, it would compensate their high cost (justified only from the extra mobility the SPG provides). most of the time, I'll not choose SPG because their ammo load is too small, and their indirect fire capability is inferior to the LeIG18.

[kip]

I finished the entire thing. It's really good. Its a mix of both. I dont want to give anything away. (spoiler)German, There are some battles that rely on the infantry and light vehicles to start the push before the tanks show up. Plus on other maps your tanks will get light up no matter what. Cant see the enemy until infantry in right on top of them. Basic infantry tactics is to leap frog. Move one group up a nibble. Let them cover, move the next a nibble further, let them cover and so on. Have a mobile mger(light up known or possible enemy position ) lay down ground fire for everyone.

[Deputy]

On the comment about the 88 and whether it is targeting aircraft...I've played other games where the 88 could only be made to target tanks. Not sure how it's represented in this sim, but it wouldn't surprise me if that's the way they designed it. I am guessing here, but I don't think the 88 that was hauled along with the ground units was a "dual purpose" gun. Maybe they only carried AP ammo or the crews weren't trained for AA defense....I dunno. I'm just guessing on all of this. Not even sure if the gun crews for 88s were Wehrmacht or Luftwaffe. I'm thinking probably Luftwaffe. Hermann was very jealous about his Luftwaffe crews and equipment. I defer to anyone who has more/better details.

Then again, there are reports of tanks in this sim using their main gun to shoot down Iluyshin aircraft. That would be funny to see.

[Paulverisor64]

Very good advice from all of you.

It sounds as if you all take a careful methodical approach to the battlefield instead of trying to Blitzkrieg. IMO experience that is the best.

Phil: Thanks for the pointers on specific equipment it does sound like the Pz III N would be quite well suited for softening up trenches. I also didn't realize that equipment such as Mortars would pick up significantly in speed and accuracy the more experience they gain. That also would be a great tool for the trenches.

Knokke: That is a very good point for using 75mm over SPG's. I can attest that the Wespe didn't have a whole lot of rounds. After they are gone it was OK now what. Um can it tow anything? nope. Typically these guns don't go very far anyways. I'm sorry you ran into the low frame issue.

kip: I like what you said about using leap frog to advance. That would be a good true to life technique to use. I didn't realize you could really use suppression to advance like that. It is quite tough taking ground as infantry.

Deputy: That would be really funny to see a tank knock a plane out of the sky.

[fcc56]

Hi Paul

Regards the defenses, hit them with anything you have - 75mm howitzers are great at softening the blow, and quite accurate, as are mortars although they are less reliable. If you can 'occupy' enemy mortars and AT guns in-game they have huge amounts of ammunition and there's nothing better than knocking out enemy defenses with their own equipment. . . .

I find the 251/1's and half-tracks practically useless in this game. They are targeted by everything from the outset. I tend to ditch them and buy either a AAA or a SP or tank or something with more value.

Although I only have experience with the demo, I have found that half-tracks are useful for towing captured field guns to useful locations, once the guns have been "occupied" by infantry. In the demo German mission, I chose two mortar half-tracks and the one with the PaK gun (251/10), so they could multi-task.

[Knokke]

The suppression fire seems to be working very well in the game - too well sometime, when the player is at the receiving end

An infantryman in the game will become restless when too many shots are landing near him (he'll rather try to find cover than to shot back).

some other comments:

The 88mm gun really is shooting at ennemy aircraft in the game. The only thing is that it's not very efficient, because 88mm AA guns were not used to shoot individually at low flying aircraft. They were used in batteries of several guns, trying to put as much lead flying as possible in a detemined area. In game, having one or two 88mm guns for AA defence is like a waste. their low rate of fire makes them almost useless against low flying, fast moving aircraft (sometime, one does not even notice they're firing). They're more usefull in the game against armored ground targets. Against aircraft in game, the best defense is either machine guns or 20mm autocannons (the russian 14,5 DshK is really good for this). Even the 37mm guns have too slow a rate of fire to be really effective against aircraft maneuvering at such low altitude.

For AAA defense, I'll first make use of the cover afforded by trees, trying as much as possible to have my guns and vehicles lying in hiding under trees, hopefully protecting them a little better from the preying eyes of ennemy aircraft. I'll generally choose a SdKfz-222 to provide a meager AA defense instead of the more obvious choice of a quadruple 20mm guns mount on a halftrack, because I might be able to use it more efficiently during the latest stages of the battles, to help during mopping-up. The quadruple mount is very effective against A/C though, and the weight of fire is it can deliver is good against infantry and lightly armored vehicles , but it is a bit risky, as it can easily be put out of action by small arms fire.

As for the infantry:

I'll try to use my scouts to discover ennemy dispositions, but I'll not rely on them toà much, because usually they'll be targeted by ennemy artillery before they can spot anything, even with 90% scouting skill.

The best "scouts" in game are the heavy tanks, because they'll attract a lot of fire (that will make the ennemy reveal itself), are able to stand a lot of punishement, and their optical devices seems to be much more useful than the AI infantry naked eye, even with their reduced field of view.

The threath provided by minefields is such that I'll never commit all my infantry to an attack; I'll rather send a few squad members to act as "cannon fodder" to blow on the mines. We've no infantry dedicated to mine clearing (what's the use of the engineer squad, except to act as an assault squad against lightly armored vehicles?). Once the mine threath as been identified, I'll assume that the minefield is mined with both anti-personnel and antitank mines. If some soldiers manage to cross the minefield unscathed, I'll send a light tank on the exact same path. It'll hopefully clear some more mines by rolling on them, and if it's track are damaged or if it's destroyed by an AT-mine, the loss is less grievous than having a heavier tank being immobilized in a place where he can no longer take part in the fighting. But before sending such a tank, I'll have made sure that he had prieviously expendend most of its HE ammo load to soften ennemy defenses. I'll have the rest of the infantry following the same path, so that most of them will cross without hiting a mine.

For infantry, movement mode and body stance seems to make all the difference between survival and death. I'll have them move with the "move" command only when they're well away from ennemy sight. Other than that, I'll have them moving at all times only by lying low and crawling. I'll make them kneel only if I need them to move quickly to one spot or an other. I don't understand how spotting is working with the AI infantry, so I'll use the infantry only to occupy the terrain and mostly, to man the abandonned ennemy weapons (HMG, guns and mortars should be captured as much as possible for the added fire power they'll provide). I will never have the infantry do the actual fighting, as they seem unable to spot anything most of the time, even not guns standing right in front of them at a few meters. I'll simply hope that they can provide additional firing weight in case an ennemy unit they're able to spot is closing on them.

There is two movement modes to choose from when moving in combat: "storm/assault" mode and "attack/fire" mode.

Storm mode will make the soldiers move to the choosen destination as fast as they can, only firing from time to time at a visible ennemy. The AI will prioritize movement over firing, so the soldiers will quickly rally on their objective. The drawback is that as they'll attempt to move rather than shoot, they're more vulnerable to ennemy fire.

Attack mode will make the AI prioritize shooting over moving. This mode seems better adapted for the soldiers survivability, as they'll move only untill they spot an ennemy. Once an ennemy is spotted, they'll stop moving, and will shoot at the target untill it is either dead or no longer in sight, in which case they'll resume moving toward their intended destination as long as they don't spot an other ennemy. Their movement will be slower and if many targets are presenting, they might keep firing and quickly get out of ammo before reaching their destination. There is one drawback though (and a big one, in my opinion): the AI will prioritize engagement over movement, but will move toward anything in sight if they don't have a direct line of fire, even ennemies located on the other side of the map, more than a kilometer away. Let's say that you want your guys to move toward a gun pit 25m in front of them. They'll move there unless they spot (or are aware of) someone in an other place, in which case, they'll change their heading and start to chase the new target, even if it's several hundred meters away, and even in the opposite direction to the direction you wanted them to move. They'll forget your order to "attack" the gun pit near them, and will most probably enter danger zones and minefield away from your carefully planned attack path. They'll move to the gun pit only if they've no longer line of sight on a possible target. This make the attack mode useless unless the only targets visible are located close to the gun pit. If the decision to engage and move toward targets out of LOF was limited to a certain distance around the intended destination point, it will work perfectly, but this is not the case.

So, most of the time, I'll stick with the assault/storm order, even if it means my guys will be more often shot at than they'll shoot at the ennemy.

When moving, I'll try to have two squad overlapping in their movement: one is moving while the other is stationary, ready to fire on any new discovered treath. I'll have a tank or light armored vehicle doing the same thing, to provide added fire support when possible.

I'll do my best to have the crew of any destroyed vehicle survive the battle, to try to keep the benefits of any experience they might have gained during the fight. Sometime, there is the urge to use these crew as extra infantry, after having equipped them with weapons captured from the ennemy (all the more when your infantry force starts to dwindle). I'll try to refrain doing that, as i think risking them would be a waste.

[Deputy]

Knokke: Thanks for that info about the 88s. And you are exactly right. When used to defend cities or strategic areas they were employed in batteries of several guns ringed around the area to be protected. The big advantage of the 88s in ground combat was they had outstanding optics for aiming/sighting. This, coupled with their large caliber shell, made for a deadly weapon.

[kip]

A little more about the infantry. First of all there are plenty of times when the tanks can do all the dirty work and I use them pretty much like whats already been said. But when it comes to the infantry, there is a dynamic here. On the first German map I couldn't get it right. The center trenches and town behind it was the trouble spot. Once I finally defeated them I learned that storming around isn't gonna work. A few(German) missions in the game I found myself getting into trouble by AT guns I couldn't see and I couldn't flank far enough without getting picked off by even more AT guns or aircraft. So it was up the middle with Infantry and one tank that I inched up behind the infantry for support.

I learned a few things here. Starting with a squad that is trying to move forward. Crouch position and you can use the sneak button, they don't always crawl, they will move slowly in a crouched position. Plus you should only move about a third of the way at a time to where you want to go, when they see the enemy they stop. Now its time to pause(lol). Best thing to do here is bring another squad or attack group up have them attack the position. Messing around with the infantry for awhile I discovered they have quite the arsenal themselves. There are a few different rifle grenades. Its awesome when you find a AT gun with your Infantry. They don't see you and you take them out with a rifle grenade.(also works against mg bunkers and tanks.) Or burn up a enemy with a petrol bomb. While moving if there is a blind corner and you know the enemy is there, throw a nade that way they will retract.

And another important thing is have a second line following up. So you have replacements on the ready. You can have a tank following and attach infantry to it so they follow and protect it other. double click the troops and right click on the tank. As your center starts to get deeper your flanks can also start to move up. Then it's back to shooting up the tree line with area fire. Try the different formations also. I use column(tight areas) or wedge(alittle more room) alot when the enemy is close. Don't move around in the open to much.

[Paulverisor64]

Thanks for continuing very good information. Hopefully this will help people just getting into the game be able to elevate their enjoyment. As this is meant to be a simulation it will be very frustrating to those accustomed to running and gunning. This realism is what I genuinely love. The commiting of troops to battle causes tension because with each move you could be saying goodbye to valuable members of your army. Those who you have sent off to their death will not be coming back for the next mission.

Knokke: I'd like to comment on your last paragraph. I too wanted to use the tank crew of disabled tanks to get a better push with my infantry. Perhaps you do have better luck gaining ground with infantry, but not only do you stand a chance of losing valuable experience through the death of your tank crew as you suggest; you also would lose the tank that was disabled from your available vehicle pool in the next mission.

Very good information for using infantry in battle!

[phil stanbridge]

I have been practicing suppression with my little men and it works really well. I countered an AT gun in an emplacement that my armour couldn't get to. I split a squad, flanking the sides. I sent one man forward and hid him behind an obstacle. I then crept another guy around to the side of the emplacement. I then got the man hiding behind an obstacle to lob grenades at the emplacement which he did - one grenade killed a gunner but he couldn't get the others. I noticed the gun crew turning the gun to face the direction of the identified attack - so I then hit the gun from the flank. Machine gunned the crew in the back whilst they were moving! It was a perfect scenario! 3-4 dead gunners, AT gun left in good condition, and no casualties for me. That's where infantry support comes into its own.

[kip]

That's awesome. The more you tinker the better it gets. I think actual German tactics had the mger out front and the riflemen in supporting positions. But I prefer the other way around. They seem to respond faster. They snap and shoot at a threat when they are still. Or of course having them spray area fire keeps the enemy pinned very well. You can set the area to wide just like heavy guns, and he"ll spray the whole area, it's awesome. And of course while he's doing this start your flanking. You got it.