Pešadija Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 Now those are nice skirts! Always asked what can the freaking rubber skirts protect you from though. BB guns? Pitchforks? I see. The Merkava's freaky layout combines the thick, multilayered, advanced protection of our MBTs with a very steep sloped turret. Would like to know how well the NATO APFSDS performs against it; but the day such knowlwdge will be needed will be a freaky day indeed! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damian90 Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 Merkava Mk.4 standard side skirts are 70-80mm thick, like in M1 series, heavy skirts are however thicker, probably around 150-200mm, I think they are more around ~100mm. I see. The Merkava's freaky layout combines the thick, multilayered, advanced protection of our MBTs with a very steep sloped turret. Would like to know how well the NATO APFSDS performs against it; but the day such knowlwdge will be needed will be a freaky day indeed! Only Merkava Mk.2D (Merkava Siman 2 Bet Dor Daled), Merkava Mk.3A (Merkava Siman 3 Alef), Merkava Mk.3B (Merkava Siman 3 Bet), Merkava Mk.3B BAZ (Merkava Siman 3 Bet Baz), Merkava Mk.3D (Merkava Siman 3 Bet Baz Dor Daled), Merkava Mk.4A (Merkava Siman 4 Alef) and Merkava Mk.3B (Merkava Siman 4 Bet) have multilayer laminate protection similiar to western tanks, older variants have simpler protection. However modern Merkava variants turret special armor thickness is smaller than in western tanks, thanks to geometric tricks have similiar thickness and offers similiar protection. Hull however in basic configuration have better protection, especially at sides and rear while western tanks have rather better front protection and side + rear hull protection with addon armor kits. As for NATO APFSDS, depends what KE protection Israeli armor offers, then You can compare it with APFSDS penetrators penetration values at specific distance. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pešadija Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 As said before, slope is the least expensive defense. Hitting armor perpendicularly, I.E. at 90°, is the most effective way a penetrator can defeat it. The steeper the angle of impact... you know the drill. Usually the philosophy of east/west was (at least for the turret) steep VS resistant. And as I see, the late Merkavas... If they added some delicious ERA sammiches to those turrets, the hebrews might just be unkillable. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damian90 Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 As said before, slope is the least expensive defense. Hitting armor perpendicularly, I.E. at 90°, is the most effective way a penetrator can defeat it. The steeper the angle of impact... you know the drill. Usually the philosophy of east/west was (at least for the turret) steep VS resistant. And as I see, the late Merkavas... Actually modern KE penetrators are better suited to perforate thick sloped armor than thick multilayer vertical one. If they added some delicious ERA sammiches to those turrets, the hebrews might just be unkillable. They allready combined dynamic protection in to multilayer laminate armor. Western tanks also have probably some sort of dynamic protection inside their multilayer laminate armor. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pešadija Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 'Zat so? I always saw era on the skirts, obviously for mobility kills, and sometimes on the hull, but never on the turret. Plus, I'm still baffled about rubber skirts. Seriously. They pioneered ERA, and never thought of this lil' jewel? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damian90 Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 'Zat so? I always saw era on the skirts, obviously for mobility kills, and sometimes on the hull, but never on the turret. In western designs dynamic protection is encased in multilayer laminate armor. But it is not nececary ERA, maybe other type like NERA, NxRA or SLERA, as for rest I will reply later. Ok about skirts, in the west there are two types of approach, very thick but short heavy ballistic skirts like on the Leopard 2 and Leclerc, where the rest of the skirt is thin rubber + perforate steel. US aproach with long but a bit thinner heavy ballistic skirt accompanied by non ballistic skirt over engine compartment. And a British aproach with non ballistic skirts replaced by thick ballistic skirts if needed. Of course French/German and US aproach also provide possibility to replace side skirts with thick armor modules or dynamic protection skirts like in British example. Soviets however never used heavy ballistic skirts, they only used dynamic protection on some tanks attached to rubber skirts. Actually best quality of dynamic protection elements on tanks were found on tanks manufactured in KMDB, while tanks manufactured in Nizny Tagil were... well everything was simple yes but far from optimal. Tanks from Lenigrad and Omsk were mix, while T-64BW had very good ERA coverage, T-80BW and T-72AW were not. Later however T-80U and T-80UD had better ERA covarage than T-72B (both with Kontakt-1 and Kontakt-5). Russians get close with ERA covarage to the Ukrainians thanks with welded turrets and later with Relikt ERA. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pešadija Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 Ain't Relikt, though sweet, still in testing phase, along with Kaktus? They are both publicized to be far better that Kontakt-5 and effective against modern penetrators as well as heat. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damian90 Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 Relikt is ready to go, it was intended to be mounted on T-72BM Rogatka and T-80BM Rogatka upgrades. However it will be mounted currently only on T-90M if this version will be produced. Kaktus was developed only for Object-640 and it's turret. Frm Object-640 turret was developed similiar so called universal turret for different tanks, also equipped with Kaktus. Well Kaktus was not pure ERA but more likely a modular hybrid (ERA + multilayer laminate integrated in to one) armor. They are both publicized to be far better that Kontakt-5 and effective against modern penetrators as well as heat. Yes they are, Kontakt-5 will not be ignited by such APFSDS like M829A2 and M829A3, dunno what will happen when DM-53/63, L27A1 or OLF120F1/F2 will hit it, but these will probably ignite Kontakt-5. Relikt as well as Kaktus and Knife were developed to defeat M829A2 and M829A3, while US bought Kontakt-5 and Knife for tests. probably after tests on Knife (probably early variant) they decided to develop AKE - Advanced Kinetic Energy, rumors said that this round is currently designated M829E4 and after standarization it wil become M829A4. This round will be probably less vurnabale to Relikt and Knife ignition. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pešadija Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 Eh eh. Kontakt-5 was pretty good for the penetrators of its time. As I know, when Americans made tests against Kontakt equipped original Russian T-72s in the mid nineties they were surprised to see how well it withstood a couple of Abrams shots. The Gulf war and the Assad Babil probably made them think it would go without much resistance. Of course, they upgraded their penetrators immediately. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damian90 Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 US tested on T-72M1 equipped with K-5 only old M829, not even M829A1. But they also tested T-80U (at least several times) and bought from Ukraine 4 T-80UD equipped with some elements of T-84 and probably with welded turret + besides K-5 also Knife ERA. These tests were a base for development of replacement for M829 and M829A1, the M829A2 and M829A3. As for Iraqi T-72's, they got a mix of very old variants of T-72, the locally made Assad Babil and made in Poland and probably former Chechoslovakia T-72M/M1's. These last were better armored with WarPac countries armor standard that gives frontal turret around 480-500mm RHAe vs. KE. This means that German DM-33 120mm APFSDS (~470mm RHA at 2000m) is not capabale to perforate some parts of frontal armor. However M829 and M829A1 were capabale to do that. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pešadija Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 How did the T-80 fare up front? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damian90 Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 No informations. But we know that Yanks digged up in T-80U armor in Sweden (with Swedes, Russians were angry), once more in T-80U that was bought secretly by UK inteligence and then send to US for further tests, and probably they digged up more in South korean T-80U/UK's that are from Russian army stocks and in their standards. They also digged up extensivly in Ukrainian T-84's. So they probably know everything about their armor protectiona nd how defeat it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pešadija Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 Ah, those wacky Russians. I don't know if to subscribe or not to the Moscow defense brief, in the hope some radical breakthrough is announced. Ah! Another thing that just got me. I read of this tank model in several places, but could never see specifications. Only things said were "a variant of the T-72", and from an Osprey book I bought last summer, a photo of Soviet marine armour seemed to confirm it. But what is the T-74 exactly? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damian90 Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 None T-72 variant was ever designated T-74. However T-74 was another revolutionary design of A.A. Morozow, he never finished it because of illness and he was then an old man near retirement time from buissness. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pešadija Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 Are you completely sure? That thing is on the GHQmodels modern miniatures list, and I have never seen one off/misnamed miniature by them. But also, that Osprey issue was in 1985, so... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damian90 Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 I repeat. None T-72 variant was ever designated T-74. T-74 was another revolutionary project of next generation MBT made by A.A. Morozow, he never completed it. There is only one plastic model of it in KMDB (I believe there) museum. BTW, there is even a patern of designations for different plants in SU. T-64, T-84 (T-74) from Charkiv, T-80's from Leningrad and Omsk, and T-72's from Nizny Tagil. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pešadija Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 Dude, ok, no need to use the emphatic bold numbers, jeez. I know all the tanks in the series (at least the base models) and who produced them, just unsure about this one. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damian90 Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 I like to be precise. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pešadija Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 I know, but, you understand, the vague feeling that the screen gives is different than meatspace. The bold numbers gave me the impression of being a mentally challenged person chastised by a tutor. But you are, after all, the tank prince of the white and red, so I'll bow my head. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damian90 Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 I wonder what would be reaction of my friends from university if they would know that I'am "prince". 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pešadija Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 Don't know. What do you/they study? Can they tell how fast the kuegelpanzer went? It all depends. We can start with our oun "the fresh prince of Toruń". Let me tell how my life got turned upside down, when I got to be the tank dude in town... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damian90 Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 Hisotry on UMK in Toruń, most of them on military history specialization, I'am studing currently in other city a National Defense. But believe me my friend, girls on UMK are hot (most polish girls are hot!), damn I need to go there soon and date with one really great girl. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pešadija Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 Go for it man! And yes, I admire the feminine wonders of the eastern Europe I fled (even if it's the southwesternmost part of eastern Europe). I plan to do a complete road trip up and down culminating in Russia. If I don't get stuck forever in Munchen, paradise. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damian90 Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 You will be welcome in Poland , I greatly recommend to visit Toruń, great city, not too big but there are many pubs and night clubs + all that girls from university. Great time is especially at Polish students holiday http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juwenalia Yeah, after party's were ended I did not remembered what happend, but still it was great! Ok, EOT, we should back to the armored boxes. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pešadija Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 Sounds so latin. Hope it feels latin too. Ok, back to them. ehm... oh, yes! Why the hell the Kuegelpanzer abandoned? Or, it should be rephrased, why was it introduced in the first place? So strange. I can only think of balance as an advantage. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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