What a Fluke

[souldierz]

I called in light air burst rounds from 2 howitzer guns with my spotters 300 meters out.It was an area fire targeted inside of a tall walled compound containing about 7 buildings,some of them were attached and 4 floors high.

I had a squad of troops hiding in tall grass at 207 meters out.They took no fire and were watching the arty strikes without problems, then all of a sudden on the 2nd last air burst, one of my squad leads went down.

He got hit by shrapnel from a friendly arty light air burst from over 200 meters out.Unlucky for him, he was the first and last casualty, But lucky for him, he didn't die. What a fluke.

[John Kettler]

souldierz,

According to the Danger Close definition, the rule of thumb and the modified Minimum Safe Distance (MSD) chart, given here, below the table, your men were too close. Danger Close, defined as 600 meters for mortars and artillery.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/indirect-comp.htm

Even under the least restrictive to you interpretation of the MSD, 430 meters for 155 mm fire, your men were still too close, and the fact that you were firing airburst only compounded the problem by negating some cover they'd otherwise have had with HE PD.

If I understand your reference to "light" as being the scale of the shelling, rather than the size of the shell being delivered, I see nothing remarkable here. "Friendly fire isn't." Tall grass is concealment, not cover, your men were apparently on the gun-target line, with the shells going directly overhead, they were way too close, and your SL got hit by a shell frag from a "short" round. Per the Wiki, the kill radius for 155 mm HE M107 is 50 meters and the casualty radius is 100 meters.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M198_howitzer

While it's certainly not fun to have an SL hit, had the bombardment been heavy, you would've likely taken even worse lumps. As hard lessons for battlefield commanders go, yours was pretty mild. Also, impacting artillery, absent, say, Excalibur or laser guidance, falls into an area, not on a point. The FO's job is to put the center of the impact pattern on the given grid coordinates. If the gun-target line was over your positions, then the the principal error axis for the pattern (range) would be working against you, putting a "short" airburst closer to your men than expected.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Ryujin]

It even might not have been a short round, those fragments do go pretty far ad I've seen it happen before.

As John mentioned, the effective wounding radius of the shell is 100m, but a fire mission is considered "danger close" at 600m. The shrapnel doesn't magicly stop at 100m and there can be short rounds, so if you need to call in danger close, especially 300m or closer, try to minimize risk to your troops.

A. Set up the target/round type to minimize risk. In your case the walled compound would have contained a lot of the shrapnel if you called in HE quick (the "general" option) and much of the shrapnel would be flying at ground level or close to it. Not to mention it does a better job on structures, if that's what you were shooting at. Using physically smaller guns (not light or slower fire) will reduce the shrapnel risk. 60mm mortars throw around a lot less shrapnel than a 155mm howitzer.

B. Set up anyone, especially under 300m, with some kind of cover between them and the target area. Terrain, ditch, building, whatever. Worst case just tell them to hide, so no one is standing or kneeling.

C. In those "oh crap!" moments where you have to call it in really close, make sure the relative risk of friendly fire is worth whatever your shooting at.

[John Kettler]

Souldierz,

"Effective" is synonymous with "high probability," but real life weapon behavior isn't cookie cutter. In reality, things simply aren't that tidy. Shell bodies don't always fragment the same way, the wind may be blowing the same direction a heavier frag is going already, etc. The effective casualty radius may be 100 meters, but to the poor unfortunate on the receiving end, it can be a lot further away than that, even if it is unlikely. The annals of military history are full of such sad stories. And if you've ever seen a shell fragment, even a slow moving one is quite dangerous, being made of red hot, razor sharp steel. Consider, too, that merely by airbursting, you've added a 6-story drop's worth of kinetic energy to that shell fragment, over and above whatever it got from ordinary detonation. Here's an excellent source on the shell fragments your bombardment created: Fragment Penetration Tests of Armor. Data are from ordnance testing. See Tables B-1 and B-2

handle.dtic.mil/100.2/ADA125824

Here is an article which details the difference between shrapnel and shell fragments, with a useful pic of a WW I era 75mm shell fragment.

www.history.army.mil/faq/shrapnel.htm

Here's a big chunk example in which the projectile failed to fully detonate.

http://www.fotosearch.com/bthumb/CSP/CSP049/k0499024.jpg

A particularly apt example: X-ray of and removed Japanese 75 mm shell fragment. It landed 100 yards away from the soldier it wounded. What hit your guy was from a much bigger shell (huge relative to the 75mm) packed with modern explosives.

http://history.amedd.army.mil/booksdocs/wwii/woundblstcs/chapter5figure179.jpg

Regards,

John Kettler

[John Kettler]

Souldierz,

The airburst also extended the reach of the fragments, just as being on a castle wall extended the reach of an archer up there over one on the ground.

Regards,

John Kettler

[souldierz]

Good info and everything John Kettler and Ryujin said is true to the bone and sound advice.

John Kettler, it looks like your a man who really does his homework on military affairs and you come up with some good info.I looked at all you displayed and must say it was interesting and your point on shrapnel and shell fragments is not lost on me.Same as you i always try to focus on the little major alternating details, so that i can get the full picture in true reality form and not be deceived by certain events or in this game not get my guys killed easily.

When it comes down to it I always try to keep my soldiers safe and play true to life.Unfortunately as the commander you can say i dropped the ball on that one.I got tired and little sloppy at the end of that mission,it lasted a little over 3hrs and was getting late.( fatigue is always a good excuse LOL)

Every move before that one i tried to be thorough and was successful because none of my men were shot even after some chaotic moments.Even on a couple compounds, i took heavy fire from an awkward angle and pulled my troops back to level it.

That last compound i had completely surrounded, all other enemies on the map were dead or wounded.All enemies occupying the higher floors in the surrounded tall walled compound were dead or wounded.It was just the few enemies on the main floor to deal with.I also had to keep these buildings intact so i couldn't just wipe it off the map.

I know what your all thinking and I know its not a good call in this situation, light air burst arty won't really do anything to those enemies on the ground floor and in thick buildings, but i just tried something new and tested to see if it would work because i was getting tired after 3hrs of careful play.

I was gonna have my men assault the compound and it would have been fatal for some troops, but then halted the troops in the grass and thought lets see if i can scare the enemy to surrender and save some pixel lives of mine.I thought maybe Since all the enemy would be pinned at the same time by howitzer fire they would give up.Never happened.

I was thinking about pulling my troops back but being tired and sloppy i tried to get away with it.After about 10 arty rounds hitting the compound, i figured my troops were safe where they were even tho it was pushing it.

To add more insult to my command i also had 2 more teams in the long grass with them.There was a total of around 27 troops in the tall grass watching the fireworks and the 1 poor guy out of all of the troops, all the space in the world and on the second last arty shell strike (and there more then 10)207 meters out, got the cursed lotto win.

As for the compound,It was a school, but in my mind they made it a barracks and ammo dump so i said to hell with it pulled my men back and leveled it.

[John Kettler]

souldierz,

Glad to help! As for fatigue, it is the bane of combat effectiveness, particularly decision making. Back during the Cold War, the U.S. Army ran a field test to determine baseline effectiveness of a properly rested rifle platoon and one in which everyone was up continuously for 24 hours. It proved a real shocker. The infantrymen were still 90% effective at their combat tasks after 24 hours without sleep, but the poor lieutenant was a train wreck, only 20% effective at tactical decision making. Traditionally, good officers will rest their men and go without sleep themselves to do so, but this forced a drastic rethink of such good intentions. If the most dangerous thing in the world is a second lieutenant and a map, as the old saw goes, how much more dangerous is he when not thinking clearly and tied to the awesome fire support now available? His men may be combat effective, but he isn't, and they depend on him for their very survival.

I close with this thought: "The most dangerous projectile on the battlefield is the one addressed 'To whom it may concern.'" That was what found your SL.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Michael Emrys]

I was gonna have my men assault the compound and it would have been fatal for some troops, but then halted the troops in the grass and thought lets see if i can scare the enemy to surrender and save some pixel lives of mine.

Smoke. I may be missing something here (I don't have the game), but I am really surprised that more players don't mention using more of it. In many situations it gives the Blue player a huge advantage as the enemy is blinded but you, at least in part, are not. Even in situations where you lack the equipment to see through the smoke, in cases like you are describing here it is a help as it would have allowed your men to rush the compound without getting shot down in the open.

When I used to play TacOps I would use artillery smoke constantly and HE only rarely. I would use ICM if I had it, but I would always use smoke and lots of it. I don't know how well my play fit NATO doctrine or munitions available in the theater, but in my brigade I made sure that the arty had a plentiful supply and used it.

Michael

[Chainsaw]

Michael: its easy, you dont have much smoke to use if you play longer scenarios. the mortar/arty can give you about 2 barrages of good smoke screens. your smokegrenades in the squads make a small but OK barrage for crossing a street etc.

when I finished a scenario normally none of my troops and tubes have any smoke left, I use it that much. but there is to little smoke available to use it everytime, so you have to prioritize when to use and not to use smoke.

[souldierz]

John Kettler, that's another fine point you made on fatigue.Fatigue always needs to be looked after by the leaders and they must also keep it in mind for themselves because lives do depend on their decisions.A tired man is not much of a match for a fully energized man who's spirit and mind is keen and yours weakened by fatigue, that's the same with armies facing each other in the field.I face this reality in my martial arts.

I'll tell you straight up, it really sucks having to fight a fresh opponent when your depleted and ready to collapse,It's one of the worst feelings, But yet i constantly make myself face this challenge by going to class for the pure enjoyment of hand to hand combat and also the weapons.It ain't easy and far from sexy.It's hell sometimes and endurance is always a factor.

Fatigue in my books is one of the most critical factors to consider and should always be looked after, both mentally and physically.Endurance is your friend and should be held close, fatigue is your rival and should be kept far away,but it's a hard balance and the nature of war and battle does not allow for that, fatigue will be constantly be on you like a shadow at every aching step.

As John Kettler say's "it is the bane of combat effectiveness".I like that saying,whether u made it up or picked it up from somewhere, that's well put.

As for smoke, I always use smoke.Constantly in every way.I dump it on enemies,use it as a screen and make use of it where ever possible in whatever creative way i can think off.

Michael Emrys you'd be right about using smoke in the open,there's no question about that, but my situation didn't need the smoke to block the enemy view.The high wall that surrounded the compound did that and all the enemies on the upper floors were KIA or WIA.

The part where i knew it was gonna be fatal was in the close combat area inside the compound.I knew there were enemies hiding in awkward places and waiting for my troops to get close, so they can hit them hard at close quarters.I would have won the firefight, but it was a guaranty some of my men would go down in that clash.

I noticed in SF(and I'm sure it's like that in real life other then IED's) i get the most casualties at close quarter's.I now try to avoid it as much as possible.That's when i thought to myself I'd better just pound the compound with arty instead and maybe knock down some walls.My original plan was to assault it and keep the whole compound intact, walls and all as required, but enemy resistance was to fierce and the grounds seemed very deadly.

All in all I'm reminded of the same lesson we all forget from time to time.Don't be hasty when victory is in sight, Don't let your guard down or take short cuts when you get tired and always be thorough to the end.

Even tho only 1 man got severely wounded I was a little disappointed in it, but somewhat amused that it actually happened in game.

I almost had a perfect game, but over all, the operation was a major success despite the projectile with the 'to whom it may concern' address on it.That was sent to the enemy,but it came back in the mail and my poor SL got stuck with it.

[Inkompetent]

Just about nasty effects of stuff going further than effective ranges...

We had an accident a some years ago in Sweden where a civilian was killed by a stray bullet during military rifle practice. I can't recall the specifics, but he was sitting in his car with the side window down, I believe about 2.5km from the rifle range. The soldiers emptied their magazines on full auto, and I guess one got quite some muzzle climb (due to the distance I believe they were using AK4 rifles with 7.62mm NATO and not the AK5s with 5.56mm NATO) since the guy in the car got hit in his head and died instantly.

Forensics claimed that he would have lived would the window have been up, since the bullet was going so slow the car window would have stopped it completely.

Talk about being unlucky, but it shows that even at extreme ranges the stuff can still injure and kill.

I'm quite certain I've got guys hit by 155mm airburst fragments at surely 600m in CMSF, simply because they were moving in the open instead of staying in cover during the barrage. Might have been something else hitting them, but since it's happened at the same time as artillery round detonations...

[panzermartin]

Just about nasty effects of stuff going further than effective ranges...

We had an accident a some years ago in Sweden where a civilian was killed by a stray bullet during military rifle practice. I can't recall the specifics, but he was sitting in his car with the side window down, I believe about 2.5km from the rifle range. The soldiers emptied their magazines on full auto, and I guess one got quite some muzzle climb (due to the distance I believe they were using AK4 rifles with 7.62mm NATO and not the AK5s with 5.56mm NATO) since the guy in the car got hit in his head and died instantly

Oh my..how can someone be so unlucky. Damn..