borsook Posted August 8, 2009 Share Posted August 8, 2009 I noticed that if a sub is attacked on one side of the Gibraltar and it dives it can appear on the other side of it. This is surely a bug? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill101 Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 I'm pretty sure that some U-Boats did manage to pass through the Strait during the war (and they certainly did in WWI) so I don't think this is a significant problem. At least, I don't think it's totally unfeasible for this to happen. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
borsook Posted August 13, 2009 Author Share Posted August 13, 2009 I'm pretty sure that some U-Boats did manage to pass through the Strait during the war (and they certainly did in WWI) so I don't think this is a significant problem. At least, I don't think it's totally unfeasible for this to happen. But a single unit is not a single boat, it's what 12? I don't know exactly but it is too big a group to pass... Also I think that the intention was that they are unable to pass, they can do that in a very specific circumstances. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xwormwood Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 Thats the tide of war, borsook. Think about the Ark Royal (CV) and the Barham (BB), which were sunk from german subs in the mediterranean sea, actions we never see in any strategic WW2 game made in the USA or UK (same goes for the sinking of the Royal Oak at Scapa Flow (U 47). If one german sub unit manage to enter the med sea, well, thats life. At least in war times. Or think about it another way: if the Royal navy hunts a german sub unit of several ship near Gibraltar, than most probably there are many ships from the Rock chasing these subs as well, leaving bigger gaps than usualy in the defence shield of the Gibraltar street, so that a sneaky try of the german subs MIGHT succeed. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludi1867 Posted August 15, 2009 Share Posted August 15, 2009 I have to agree completely with Borsook here – having a German U-boat EVADE from one side of the Straits of Gibraltar to the other can only be seen as a glitch or incomprehensible from a historical perspective. Bill 101 is correct in noting that German U-boats did operate in the Mediterranean during the Second World War. 62 U-boats are thought to have attempted to enter the Med from the Atlantic. Nine were sunk in the attempt, and 21 aborted. So just over 30 U-boats did enter. None (zero) of these U-boats ever travelled from the Med to the Atlantic, so the traffic was effectively one way only. xwormwood correctly notes a few of the incidents these U-boats were involved in. Overall U-boats achieved a number of notable successes in the Med, but losses were high and whether the success was worth the effort is subject to debate. In game terms there is no way to willfully move a U-boat from the Atlantic through the straits of Gibraltar to the Med UNLESS the Axis control the port of Gibraltar (or the port is reduced to strength zero). I suspect, although I cannot say with certainty, that neither condition obtains in the evasion Borsook is referring to. For a U-boat to go through ‘hyperspace’ while evading and consequently travel from the Atlantic through an Allied controlled non-zero strength port of Gibraltar to the Mediterranean is simply bizarre, and I am a little surprised that it has been defended by the first two replies here. Essentially the proponents of the status quo are arguing that the game engine is just fine, players should simply accept the vagaries of fate because there actually were U-boats in the Med during the war. This argument conflates history with an unrealistic game engine, and sounds plausible but is actually quite wrong. There may be some merit to allowing players to willfully PLAN to pass a U-boat through the Straits of Gibraltar, but to have it happen by accident through the rather arcane mechanics of the current U-boat evasion process is simply hard to understand. To address the issue easily would be to prevent U-boats inadvertently travelling through hyperspace to enter a different body of water if that required passage through a non Axis controlled port (ie an Allied Gibraltar). This seems far more reasonable, and consistent with the historical record, than allowing U-boats to fly through the straits by accident. It might also be worth considering allowing U-boats to pass through an Allied controlled Gibraltar (at the potential cost of 1 to 3 strength points, which seems a reasonable variation on the historical loss level of 15%), and say a 33% chance of succeeding (to account for the high number of U-boats turned back). This would have to be done as an ‘event’, as the only place on the map where this seems a plausible possibility is the Straits of Gibraltar. However, this is not a really important addition to the game. An interesting web site on this subject (and the best short summary I have found) is at http://formontana.net/uboats.html For an understanding of how traumatic many U-boat crews saw the transit of the Straits of Gibraltar, a viewing of the movie Das Boot is worthwhile. This is probably a little too Hollywood-ish to be taken as literal truth (an ex-U-boat officer I discussed this with quite hated the depth charge depictions in the movie, for example, saying they were completely unrealistic), but it does suggest that passing through the Straits was neither lightly attempted nor easily accomplished. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
borsook Posted August 16, 2009 Author Share Posted August 16, 2009 In game terms there is no way to willfully move a U-boat from the Atlantic through the straits of Gibraltar to the Med UNLESS the Axis control the port of Gibraltar (or the port is reduced to strength zero). I suspect, although I cannot say with certainty, that neither condition obtains in the evasion Borsook is referring to. Yes, Gibraltar was under British control, and it was not bombed. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill101 Posted August 16, 2009 Share Posted August 16, 2009 I've been thinking some more about this, and ideally it would be good if the sub either couldn't travel through the Straits or took some damage in doing so. However, one thing to bear in mind when assessing this issue's importance is that sometimes the U-Boat commander might be quite pleased to pass through the Straits, but at other times it could be the last thing they want. It all depends on which side of the Straits they end up on, who has naval dominance that side, and whether or not the Allies have a carrier or two (or other surface vessels) on hand to make the whole question irrelevant. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeaMonkey Posted August 16, 2009 Share Posted August 16, 2009 I like where you're going with this line of thought Bill. It would be most appropriate that if the Uboat commander didn't have the benefit of reliable intel or support he would be caught transiting the straits by a strategically positioned RN DD or CV or perhaps landbased air's watchful eye. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amadeus Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 Is this issue finally clarified? Could subs move thru Gibraltar when harbor is allied and not at 0? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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