Patrocles Posted August 2, 2009 Share Posted August 2, 2009 This is a picture of from the Atlanta Model Expo June 2009 (the person hosting the pic attending the event and did not make the model/diorama) The model appears to be a Panzer IV tank (Bulgarian according to the stand) but has a gun that looks like the main armament on a Russian SU-76. Was this a "one off" vehicle (field conversion)? limited production/conversion? something created by the model builder? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted August 2, 2009 Share Posted August 2, 2009 If it ever existed in the real world, it was probably a post-war conversion of a captured vehicle. Most likely done because of ammunition availability for the 76. Note the Soviet style headgear. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elmar Bijlsma Posted August 2, 2009 Share Posted August 2, 2009 About halfway in the following thread. http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=272293&page=2 It existed, though the question remains: when? Such a crude botch job seems more wartime emergency measure then something you'd cook up after the war with so much Sovjet material available. Then again, the markings are rather curious. I thought they used the Balkenkreuz? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runyan99 Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 That thing pawns pumpkins. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 I thought they used the Balkenkreuz? After they changed sides? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DASman Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 That thing pawns pumpkins. No silly, they are attacking a Turkish basketball court. E 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 About halfway in the following thread. http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=272293&page=2 It existed, though the question remains: when? Such a crude botch job seems more wartime emergency measure then something you'd cook up after the war with so much Sovjet material available. Then again, the markings are rather curious. I thought they used the Balkenkreuz? I still think an important clue (if it is a valid representation) is the style of headwear for the crew. When did they start using Soviet personal gear? Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 When did they start using Soviet personal gear? According to Wiki, Bulgaria started batting for the other team in Sept '44. Figure a couple of months to sort themselfves out ... maybe Dec-Feb they started showing up equipped with Sov kit? But, in that case I'd expect a wintry setting. Also, when is pumpkin harvest 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 I suspect (based on exactly no evidence ) that the PzIV would have been a rare - perhaps even unique - conversion. My other thought is "why?" Why bother going to the presumably not-inconsiderable effort to install the ZIS gun over the original 75mm long? I'd have thought that in terms of performance, the two guns would be at least comparable. About the only advantage I can think of would be logistic - no replacement 75mm longs available after Bulgaria swapped sides, and especially dwindling stocks of ammn. The logistic consideration makes me think that this dio is perhaps set post-war, with the PzIV/ZIS combo being an interim veh with which to equip the nascent Bulgarian Peoples Armoured Unit(s), or sumfink. http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=7767 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stalins Organ Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 Dunno about that 1 in particular, but there's some photos linked here to dug in Pz 4's & T34's along the Bulgarian border with turkey put there as fortifications in the cold war - some are shown dug out, some still in place - no odd turrets on the P-4's tho - they all have original German ones. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Affentitten Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 From SO's link: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stalins Organ Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 You've got more patience than me to wait for them all to load! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrocles Posted August 5, 2009 Author Share Posted August 5, 2009 About halfway in the following thread. http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=272293&page=2 It existed, though the question remains: when? Such a crude botch job seems more wartime emergency measure then something you'd cook up after the war with so much Sovjet material available. Then again, the markings are rather curious. I thought they used the Balkenkreuz? excellent find! I see that this tank appears to be a partially opentopped vehicle. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrocles Posted August 5, 2009 Author Share Posted August 5, 2009 From SO's link: nice pic!.. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnergoz Posted August 5, 2009 Share Posted August 5, 2009 Sure seems like a lot of trouble to go to for a dubious benefit...Maybe a wartime partisan extemporaneous conversion? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Affentitten Posted August 5, 2009 Share Posted August 5, 2009 Man wouldn't that be a great job to have in the Bulgarian army? Sitting in an immobilised 30 year old tank hull waiting to get one shot off before you were steamrolled by NATO. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stalins Organ Posted August 6, 2009 Share Posted August 6, 2009 I imagine it would have been an early version with the short 75 & they didnt' have any spare German 75's to put in it? aff yyou got it wtrong - sitting there fore 30 years and then NOT getting steamrolled.....by the turkish army.......who the f*** would want to sit in a tank hull for 30 years?!! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted August 6, 2009 Share Posted August 6, 2009 I imagine it would have been an early version with the short 75 & they didnt' have any spare German 75's to put in it? Bulgaria didn't get any German hulls until mid-late 1944. While it's possible they were handed clapped out B and C models, I think it's extremely unlikely. Edit: Correction - the Bulgars got some German tanks in 1943. The 46 x Pz IV they received were langs. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Affentitten Posted August 6, 2009 Share Posted August 6, 2009 aff yyou got it wtrong - sitting there fore 30 years and then NOT getting steamrolled.....by the turkish army.......who the f*** would want to sit in a tank hull for 30 years?!! Good point. But then I guess there would be worse ways to spend your national service in the Bulgarian army that sitting idly in a field, at least in summer. (Providing the Warthogs didn't show up.) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted August 6, 2009 Share Posted August 6, 2009 ...who the f*** would want to sit in a tank hull for 30 years?!! Wouldn't you get horribly constipated? Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnergoz Posted August 7, 2009 Share Posted August 7, 2009 Wouldn't you get horribly constipated? Michael That would be resolved nicely with the first incoming round, wouldn't you think? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted August 7, 2009 Share Posted August 7, 2009 That would be resolved nicely with the first incoming round, wouldn't you think? After 30 years, they might simply explode. That would make the original problem go away, true, but might adversely impact habitability for the next crew. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stalins Organ Posted August 7, 2009 Share Posted August 7, 2009 Bulgaria didn't get any German hulls until mid-late 1944. While it's possible they were handed clapped out B and C models, I think it's extremely unlikely. I'm sure the4 ones actually sold to them were just fine, but I'd guess the Heer left behind bits of junk like every retreating army in history has, and/or they had some captured examples transfered from Soviet service. Here's some more pictures including a couple of this variant - 1 is as already noted in this thread, but there's another in a field that seems to be a different locatino, and the 1 by het 2 Stugs is open topped so apepars to be a 3rd vehicle? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Affentitten Posted August 7, 2009 Share Posted August 7, 2009 but there's another in a field that seems to be a different locatino' date=' and the 1 by het 2 Stugs is open topped so apepars to be a 3rd vehicle?[/quote'] In English please? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted August 7, 2009 Share Posted August 7, 2009 "It appears that this was more than a one-off conversion, since there appears to be at least two examples still extant." 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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