more OS X questions

[Willy Zed]

i know it will only work in software (*whine*), but does anyone know if CM2 is going to support OS X natively? (pleeeeeeeeeeeesssse)

[Schrullenhaft]

No, it won't. Until CM is written in the OpenGL graphic API it won't run natively in OS X. The RAVE support in OS X is not to the level that CM and most RAVE-based 3D games on the Mac need.

The engine rewrite will most likely include a switch on the 3D API on the Mac so that the game can be run under OS X natively. However this is at least two years from now (my guess) and will probably be seen in CM3 - The Mediterranean Theatre

[aka_tom_w]

good question

-tom w

[Jagdratt]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Schrullenhaft:

No, it won't. Until CM is written in the OpenGL graphic API it won't run natively in OS X. The RAVE support in OS X is not to the level that CM and most RAVE-based 3D games on the Mac need.

The engine rewrite will most likely include a switch on the 3D API on the Mac so that the game can be run under OS X natively. However this is at least two years from now (my guess) and will probably be seen in CM3 - The Mediterranean Theatre<hr></blockquote>

Oh brother. In terms of computers that's a very, very long time.

I suspect - based on my experience with Macs since 1984 - that this will mean CM1 & 2 probably won't be running on Macs introduced in 12-18 months time. I think it's unlikely that computer products that far in the future will be friendly with an OS roughly 24 months older than the hardware.

[Gyrene]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr> I suspect - based on my experience with Macs since 1984 - that this will mean CM1 & 2 probably won't be running on Macs introduced in 12-18 months time. I think it's unlikely that computer products that far in the future will be friendly with an OS roughly 24 months older than the hardware. <hr></blockquote>

Actually I found macs to be surprisingly old-program friendly.

I've ran some positively ancient stuff in my OS 9 iMac, that I was surprised it ran. (Dark Castle and The Colony, for instance)

Booting up in 9 is a small price to pay for CMBB. But yes, a pain in the ass still.

Gyrene

[Jagdratt]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Gyrene:

Actually I found macs to be surprisingly old-program friendly.

I've ran some positively ancient stuff in my OS 9 iMac, that I was surprised it ran. (Dark Castle and The Colony, for instance)

Booting up in 9 is a small price to pay for CMBB. But yes, a pain in the ass still.

Gyrene<hr></blockquote>

I agree with your observations, but I think this will be a bit different situation. In your instance, you're running older software on a current OS.

If I understand the types of time delays we're talking about we will be looking at using an old OS on a new computer. It's uncommon to design a new box to run old system SW. The more usual situation is that the new box may require additions to the current system SW in order to run properly.

Hate to be a pessimist, but this doesn't sound good to me.

[Schrullenhaft]

After CMBB the next project is CMII, the engine rewrite. The next game based on this engine will be CM3: The Med (not the official name, but that's the intended theatre). I'm guessing that the graphical API will change to OpenGL (BTS hasn't publicly stated that this is the case as of yet), at least on the Mac if not possibly the PC too. In addition to the graphic API change the whole underpinning of CM will be changed to add a lot more features, some of which will take time just to conceptualize.

On top of this CM3's vehicles, OOB's and other details will have to be researched and incorporated, a process of which CMBB is in the finishing stages of right now. By the time CMBB is released it would have taken BTS 1 ¾ years between releases. So what sounds like to you with BTS taking two years to 'fix' CM to make it run natively in OS X is only part of what will be accomplished in that time.

If it was a matter of just changing some code to work with the file system or interface, it would be a relatively simple matter. But OS X forces a change in CM that involves a huge base of code to be transposed into a new API. That effort alone would have taken BTS another year to release CMBB if they attempted it now. And their efforts would be for naught since their next project requires them to rip up huge chunks of the code (the very foundations of CM are going to be changed to accomodate new features). With only one programmer BTS can't approach the coding work in a haphazard manner such as trying to include OpenGL in CMBB and then rewriting the engine thereafter.

Yeah, if you want to run CMBO & CMBB you're going to have to run in Classic Mode or Apple's going to have to improve their RAVE support (which won't likely happen). Most of the major titles on the Mac (which are first person shooters typically) aren't as dependent on RAVE since the OpenGL API is literally a standard in that part of the industry. Apple has a history of taking technological leaps before the rest of the industry. Some of these leaps have a price, such as backward compatibility. In this case, the small segment of Mac game developers dependent on RAVE are the unfortunate victims of progress. It's not that they won't change, but that it will take them longer than the well-staffed development shops that churn out 'gaming chum'.

[Ignatious J. Fathead]

Just a minor point of order: CM does not run in Classic mode, it requires a reboot back into OS 9. If it ran in Classic, probably nobody would be asking when the OS X version will be available, because it would for all practical purposes be a non-issue. Probably for most Mac users currently migrating to OS X, the only application they own that does notrun in Classic is CM (I haven't found any others yet). And that's a bummer no matter how good the reasons might be!

[ 01-26-2002: Message edited by: Ignatious J. Fathead ]</p>

[Schrullenhaft]

My reference to 'Classic Mode' meant either within OS X or especially as a separate boot into 0S 9.x.

[Jagdratt]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Schrullenhaft:

If it was a matter of just changing some code to work with the file system or interface, it would be a relatively simple matter. But OS X forces a change in CM that involves a huge base of code to be transposed into a new API. That effort alone would have taken BTS another year to release CMBB if they attempted it now. And their efforts would be for naught since their next project requires them to rip up huge chunks of the code (the very foundations of CM are going to be changed to accomodate new features). With only one programmer BTS can't approach the coding work in a haphazard manner such as trying to include OpenGL in CMBB and then rewriting the engine thereafter.

Yeah, if you want to run CMBO & CMBB you're going to have to run in Classic Mode or Apple's going to have to improve their RAVE support (which won't likely happen). <hr></blockquote>

Yes, I've read the background and understand it's not a simple fix. The point I'm raising is that if this continues (the requirement to use OS9), owners of future Mac boxes may lose the ability to play CM. I don't think we can take as a given that Apple's future hardware creations will run "old" system software.

For example, I don't think my G4 will work with the software that was a generation old when the box was made (that would be OS 7.6). I believe it requires a late version of OS 8 or higher. At some point the new Mac boxes will only work with OSX. What do we do then?

(wringing hands and staring at clouds for first indications of the sky falling) :eek:

BTW Schrullenhaft, I certainly appreciate your contributions to this forum - you're obviously spending a fair bit of time helping players sort out their technical support issues.

[ 01-26-2002: Message edited by: Jagdratt ]</p>

[Ignatious J. Fathead]

Based on what I know about Apple's OS strategy, I'd predict that the "classic" environment will be around for quite some time, to provide for backwards compatibility, just as even the most recent versions of Windows can still run (most) DOS applications. What may disappear some day is the ability to boot into Classic, or at least the option to do so made somewhat less obvious.

If Apple does decide to remove the Classic boot option, or if future versions of Classic don't support RAVE, we may be sunk since CM does not run in Classic. Not to belabor this point, but this is the important distinction between running the Classic environment and booting into OS 9, at least for CM players on the Mac.

[karch]

As for OS9, there will be updates to 9 this year... maybe 9.3 or so. I thought I'd seen roadmaps up to 9.5.

OS9 will probably be loaded for at least 2 more years on EVERY mac that ships. Even with X booting at the main OS, 9 will also be loaded for classic compatability..... and to boot into to play CM.

Who knows, maybe someone will re-write the RAVE compatability to support CM.. but I doubt it. I wouldn't worry about any machines bought before CMII or CM3... to NOT run OS9 or some version of it.

Scott Karch

[Ignatious J. Fathead]

Originally posted by karch:

As for OS9, there will be updates to 9 this year... maybe 9.3 or so. I thought I'd seen roadmaps up to 9.5.

OS9 will probably be loaded for at least 2 more years on EVERY mac that ships. Even with X booting at the main OS, 9 will also be loaded for classic compatability..... and to boot into to play CM.

Who knows, maybe someone will re-write the RAVE compatability to support CM.. but I doubt it. I wouldn't worry about any machines bought before CMII or CM3... to NOT run OS9 or some version of it.

Scott Karch

Yes, Apple has mapped Classic to 9.5, but I have read rumors that in some future version we will lose the ability to boot into Classic. I would not be in the least surprised to see this quite soon, perhaps as soon as this year, as OS 9.x booting is essentially unnecessary now, with very few exceptions. CM is one of those; in fact, the only one I've ever encountered.

[karch]

Originally posted by Ignatious J. Fathead:

...I would not be in the least surprised to see this quite soon, perhaps as soon as this year, as OS 9.x booting is essentially unnecessary now, with very few exceptions. CM is one of those; in fact, the only one I've ever encountered.[/QB]

I agree that there are fewer and fewer reasons to boot into 9. Combat Mission, Virtual PC (Its Faster in 9) and anything that needs tcp/ip. I can't get IP to work in classic. I don't think 9.5 will be out in 2002. Probably 2003. So I'd bet ALL Macs will be able to boot 9.2 or later at least until 2003, probably 2004. I'll keep my iMac around to play CMBO and CMBB until CMII is released. Heck, if someone ever fixes Classic RAVE, we may get CM in classic mode anyway. I doubt it, but it would be nice.

[Gyrene]

Yes, Apple has mapped Classic to 9.5, but I have read rumors that in some future version we will lose the ability to boot into Classic. I would not be in the least surprised to see this quite soon, perhaps as soon as this year, as OS 9.x booting is essentially unnecessary now, with very few exceptions. CM is one of those; in fact, the only one I've ever encountered.

CM is not alone with OS X & Classic woes. My scanner (Umax) will not work in Classic or X, my graphics tablet does not work with every program (Although Painter 7 finnaly supports it) and a few other nags.

There are many other things like falsh memory card readers, certain PDA's & other stuff that ony work under a OS 9 boot up.

I hope it's all fixed soon enough. I can't wait to go all X.

Gyrene

[Ignatious J. Fathead]

Almost anything that demands direct access to hardware could be a problem in OS X, if the drivers haven't been written. Though I personally haven't seen any problems with scanners and the like working in the Classic environment, I would not be surprised if others have.

Right, OS 9.5 almost certainly will not appear in 2002, but OS 9.3 probably will, and when Apple decides to eliminate Classic booting is anybody's guess.