John Tillers Pz Campaigns meets Combat Mission

[Sgt Bilko]

Below is an idea for playing Combat Mission in a campaign format that will cut out a lot of the "Paperwork" and the need for dedicated forums and hordes of GMs.

It is achieved by combining John Tiller's Panzer Campaign games ( JTPC ) with Combat Mission ( CM )

It can be played with at least 3 people or more, at least 2 players and 1 Games Master / Post Master.

All parties have to own a copy of the Tiller game (Pz Camp Tobruk 41 for example)

A scenario from the JTPC game is chosen and the player that starts first plots their moves in the game....saves the file and sends to a team mate or the GM depending on team size.

In the case of multi players per side the forces are divided up as agreed by the team and each player in turn plots their moves and sends the save file to the GM who will then forward it to the next player in the team (This is to circumvent the temptation to ask a teamate to send a turn back for re doing if the original sender has changed their mind about the moves they had plotted,each member of the team will not have the e mail address of their teammates as all communication goes through the GM...the same applies for planning discussions..... this would allow the GM to create their own rules about exactly how easy it or hard it is for the whole team to communicate to each other before and during the game)

The last player in the team then creates the turn into a PBEM file and sends it to the GM who then forwards it to the opposing team who repeat the process.

This goes on until a contact is made that warrants a CM battle map to be created (Tiny actions can be resolved within the JTPC game)

The GM then builds the battle and the players involved play a CM battle as normal.

After all the contact battles have been resolved in CM the results are put into the JTPC game.

This is done by the GM who uses the scenario editor to create a new JTPC game that mirrors the positions and time of the current game with one exception....the units that have fought will be modified to reflect the result of the CM battles played.

Once this has been done the JTPC process begins again until a new contact and new set of CM

battles is created and then the above process is repeated.

This goes on until the game reaches its turn limit or one side surrenders...victory conditions will be determined by the Victory flags gained in the JTPC game and/or by an appraisal by the GM of the remaining forces condition and position.

To me this would be the best compromise between complexity and simplicity.

An alternative way of playing would be to have only players that are commanders playing JTPC and then their subordinate team mates fighting the CM battles that occur.

This would mean only the commanders need to own and play the JTPC game i.e. one commander on each side playing a JTPC game by PBEM with their teammates resolving the contacts in CM, where

the subordinates would have none, or a limited knowledge of the big picture,and would have to fight their corner of the game along the lines of their initial briefings,or any new intel that is passed to them via game briefings once the game is underway.Likewise the commanders would know the big picture but will have none or a limited effect on how they advise their subordinates once the game is underway.

Chain of command and communication FOW rules could then be introduced to a level of realism agreed on by the participants.

I am currently planning to start testing this method in the new year with the Tobruk 41 Tiller game and i am looking for participants that are familiar with the JTPC games and own a copy of Tobruk 41.If anyone tries this before then i would appreciate any thoughts on the possible pitfalls of the method.

Enclosed is a link to the John Tiller Games Ring,their are games for most of different theatres of

WW2.

http://www.hist-sdc.com/webring.html

UK players can order the games from this site

http://www.hist-sdc.com/webring.html

Sgt Bilko (Andy)

[ December 12, 2003, 03:11 PM: Message edited by: Sgt Bilko ]

[Holien]

Hi,

Have you had any take up on this yet?

I was thinking along same lines for a game based upon the invasion of Sciliy.

If there is a space I shall order a copy of the game?

Cheers

H

[Lou2000]

Originally posted by Holien:

Hi,

Have you had any take up on this yet?

I was thinking along same lines for a game based upon the invasion of Sciliy.

If there is a space I shall order a copy of the game?

Cheers

H

Never played the 'JTPC' games, so dont know if this idea would work ... sound good though and there is one for Sicily 43.

Watching with interest :cool:

Lou

[Holien]

Lou I see you are busy at work....

You know where this is going don't you?

Weekend campaign session....

It will stop Andreas giving my opponents unlimited amounts of artillery!!!

H

[Lou2000]

Lou I see you are busy at work....

....Ssshhhhh, dont tell the boss. As long as he thinks I'm busy, life stays sweet

You know where this is going don't you?

Weekend campaign session....

Amazing... and you've convinced the wife to let you do this. She must REALLY love you !

It will stop Andreas giving my opponents unlimited amounts of artillery!!!

Any system that can restrict Andreas already has its merits .... but ya just know he'll find a way around it.

If anybody has any more details if this idea would/could/will work I'd be interested. If this will work I'll order one of the JTPC games.

I have a couple of spare PBEM slots if you are interested in a game ... I promise to read the damn briefing this time and not blindly rush forwards into your guns ... always check ME or Attack

Lou

[Holien]

Hi Lou,

Yes she loves me. (crazy or what.)

Yes we will be having another weekend get together date to be confirmed. (Just need her out of the way, got to find when a good time for that will be.)

Yes it will work. (I had been thinking along these lines but not done anything about and Bilko has prodded me to do something about it.)

Yes Andreas will find a way to do me over. But I can live in hope that he does not bring that foul liquid back to my house.

Yes I would love a game with you as long as the e-mails work.

I have CMAK or CMBB as I choose the last you can choose the next one.

Cheers

H

[Holien]

Just checked out the scenario Depot and if you have not played "Our Backs to the Volga" it looks good and is from CapDog who has a good pedigree.

H

[Lou2000]

Backs to the volga it is then ...

....Oh yes, that liquid [shudder].

Memories of a grinning Andreas pouring what looked like tar into a small cup and setting it alight .... then getting me to drink it, whilst everybody else tries to hide their amusement !

My tounge was numb for about 20 mins ! :eek:

Strangely addictive stuff though

One sip and your hooked. I have since taken to drinking aviation fuel looking for a similar hit, but alas I cannot create the sensation.

For Sgt Bilko ... This sounds like a good idea. Have you actually tried this campaigning method in practice rather than just 'an idea'.

[kipanderson]

Hi,

Well some familiar names on this thread .

As it happens I have been giving PC…and Modern Campaigns… a go recently. I own Korsun’44 and Fulda Gap’85.

I think the above sounds like a good idea, in principle. We would have to see how it worked in practice. Maybe if we have a rerun of the great, and very successful, Live Weekend we could use PCs as a base. One game on the GMs/Umpires machine and a team leader from each side invited in to take their moves in a Hot Seat game.

My real dream is for BFC to design a full feature operational game that can be played to its conclusion, if you wish. However, where one can also “zoom down in scale”, for any given contact, and fight the battle as a CM game. The program being very like the Quick Battle program but taking the parameters for the battle from the Operational game. Units, terrain and such.

If you follow my rantings…

Anyway… short of that PC/MC may well be the answer.

All the best,

Kip.

PS. In my view playing PC/MC in “phased mode” is a must. In its default mode I cannot get into it at all. Too disconnected from real world time lines… in my view.

[Lou2000]

Gents,

Following the link that Sgt Bilko posted I found this Aide de Camp 2 (Bottom of page)

Useful for all you wargaming vets who have all those old tabletop games ..... you can transfer them over to your PC.

It may also be able to act as a GM tool for a campaign. There is a playable demo that I've just downloaded and hope to give a try later in the week.

Kip, I've been looking at Fulda Gap '85 - but cant decide between that and 'Decisive Action'

(same link - above ADC2)

Lou

[kipanderson]

Lou, hi,

I would recommend Fulda Gap’85. I have both, the Fulda Gap game is more friendly, but still very good if all the correct options are picked. Also, Decisive Action is not available with Live Play, only PBEM. In Fulda Gap you can do Live Play or PBEM.

Let me know what you get, and we can have a game. May graduate to Decisive Action…it is the real thing after all.

Lou, also have think about TacOps, from BFC. It is only $25 and very much the “real thing”. Used by most NATO countries to train company commanders.

All the best,

Kip.

[Andreas]

Gents

First things first. All opponents of Holien will get a Soviet breakthrough artillery division's worth of arty in any game I design.

Why? Because I can. And I am evil. And if you look in the CMBB forum (Andreas B. - The Finnish Years) you will see that I am a God of CMBB, so therefore who will quarrel with me? Phhh, mortals.

Second things later. Where I go, the brown tarry liquid goes. :cool: I can see Lou drooling at the thought already.

Third things last. If you can not get rid of your wife (that does not sound right :eek: ), I have now more space in London, and Mike maybe able to offer a room as well, so while it would not be as cosy as the 11th century mansion of Holien, it is an alternative.

[Andreas]

BTW - nice idea. Carry on.

[Holien]

Sorry did not track this last night as it took a while to do the set up for "our Backs to the Volga".

I see a couple of others have sneaked in.

Anyway I have found the following shop in the UK which will sell the software.

http://www.sps-systems.co.uk/trolleyed/142/

In fact I should have remembered them from when I worked down in London some 10 years ago. A great gamers shop and they have the licence for the HPS stuff so can sell any of the games.

Bilko I shall e-mail you tonight unless you respond back here. I want to order a game but if you have enough players I shall get Sicily instead and see how that might be used.

Of course you might be interested in a certain weekend in 2004.

Andreas your offer as always is most welcome and perhaps we can develop this further in the near future.

I am interested in the modern areana and I wonder out of the options you mentioned Kip which would be the best. I have heard people mention Tac Ops quite a few times and wonder how that compares to Fulda Gap?

Choices choices...

All we need now is Jim to pop in, after he finishes complaining about this and that in the CMAK forum.

P.s. I shall talk to her indoors and see what her plans are for 2004. Perhaps we can persuade her to stay and cook for us? Then again I could be asking too much.

[Lou2000]

I'll hang on before buying anything and see where this leads ..... I'm happy to go for Sicily or another.

Also flexible on modern era game...

.......Watching :eek:

Oh and I think you'll find Jim is aware of the thread...I nudged him in this direction yesterday.

Holien .... we have 'Our backs to the volga'

But I have my orders ...

" not a step back "

Stalingrad must not fall !

[kipanderson]

Holien, hi,

TacOps is a “platoon level” game. The manoeuvre units you move around are platoons. Fulda Gap’85 is a class battalion level game. The manoeuvre units you move around are battalions and the map is made up of one hex to one km.

TacOps has a couple of advantages. One is that it is “actually designed for” live team play with/ or without umpires. The second is that it only costs $25. It really is the “real thing”.

The down side is that there is no “chrome” at all.

Have a good sniff around the sites and read some reviews. You will enjoy it.

http://www.hpssims.com

For some reviews and articles,

http://www.wargamer.com

All good fun,

All the best,

Kip.

[Sgt Bilko]

Originally posted by Holien:

Hi,

Have you had any take up on this yet?

I was thinking along same lines for a game based upon the invasion of Sciliy.

If there is a space I shall order a copy of the game?

Cheers

I am currently thinking along the lines of a suggestion posted below.

It requires only the GM to own the JTPC game.

He creates a Hot Seat scenario and then posts screenshots of the map,unit positions,objectives, OOB and unit parameter files to the commanders and subordinate officers.

They devise a plan,with the Officer having the final veto, which will be represented diagramatically on the screenshot with a text file attached for more detailed instructions.

The screenshots are then posted back to the GM who inputs them into the JTPC game and then runs the turn.

Once the game is underway the new screenshots showing the new locations of units will be sent to the officers only,not the commander, and officers will only recieve a screenshot of their units.

The commander will have to gather info from their officers i.e. if communication at the start of the next turn is established with the officers then the commander recieves a screenshot of their new position and status,and a message from that officer if required.

If the communication fails then the officers carry on without deviation from the initial plan,or if no new orders get through and the officer has reached the end of their pre planned route,they remain static unless new orders get through.

This will not apply to the Germans as their officers were required and trained to act with their own initiative so Axis officer can send their own new moves to the GM if required.

This means that a battle plan will be best if it covers the whole movement from start to finish as further communication will be restricted according to FOW rules which the GM can apply.

This process is repeated until a CM battle/s occurs.

To represent communications FOW i propose to allow no direct contact between team mates apart from through the GM.

This allows the GM to impose a modified dice roll

to determine if a message gets through.

If you have any suggestions or questions i would appreciate your feedback....i will probably be running something like this with Tobruk so you are welcome to play when i am ready.

I have a few players who want to play so i will be probably using the players familiar with JTPC to be commanders...if you want to do it.

Andy

H

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Holien:

P.s. I shall talk to her indoors and see what her plans are for 2004. Perhaps we can persuade her to stay and cook for us? Then again I could be asking too much.

Prizeless. Good luck!

I can be quite charming off forum you know, so I could offer to try and keep her interested by talking about Japanese flower arrangement while you and the others blow stuff up in the attic.

Or help cook.

[Holien]

Hi Bilko,

Yes please count me in to play. I am happy to just do the battles or any other role you can give me.

I shall order the Sicily game today and see what potential that has over Christmas, if I am not too late in ordering it.

Cheers

H

P.s. Andreas I am not sure Debbie is into flower arranging and you know what they say about too many cooks.

[Sgt Bilko]

Originally posted by Holien:

Hi,

Have you had any take up on this yet?

I was thinking along same lines for a game based upon the invasion of Sciliy.

If there is a space I shall order a copy of the game?

Cheers

I am looking for 2 commanders for a campaign on the John Tiller Tobruk 41/CMAK game,it will start mid January....you do not need to own the John Tiller game to play....if you are game i will give you more details.

Cheers

Sgt Bilko

H

[Holien]

Hi Bilko,

I got your e-mail and I am interested but holidays have taken their toll. Back at work today and have a chance to respond.

I am interested and will take you up on your offer. I got the Sicily game before Christmas but still have not loaded it onto the PC. I will try to do it this weekend. I know this is not necssary but I want to see how Tiller works his games.

In truth Lou has been taking all my gaming time with "Our Backs to the Volga" which is an absolute stonking scenario and anyone reading this I recommend as a great double blind scenario. A big scenario but very entertaining and life draining....

So when I get back from drinking too much I shall sit down and force myself to respond to you and Lou on his ideas for other things. I am making these as New Year resolutions.

H

[Sgt Bilko]

Originally posted by Holien:

Hi Bilko,

I got your e-mail and I am interested but holidays have taken their toll. Back at work today and have a chance to respond.

I am interested and will take you up on your offer. I got the Sicily game before Christmas but still have not loaded it onto the PC. I will try to do it this weekend. I know this is not necssary but I want to see how Tiller works his games.

In truth Lou has been taking all my gaming time with "Our Backs to the Volga" which is an absolute stonking scenario and anyone reading this I recommend as a great double blind scenario. A big scenario but very entertaining and life draining....

So when I get back from drinking too much I shall sit down and force myself to respond to you and Lou on his ideas for other things. I am making these as New Year resolutions.

Nice one, i will make you the allied commander and send you your maps and briefing as soon as possible.

Good idea to mess about with the Sicily game,you will get a better idea of how your units will operate in the Campaign and what sort of tasks you can get them to do in a particular time.

Have a good new year

[ December 31, 2003, 08:59 AM: Message edited by: Sgt Bilko ]