End of Sino-Japanese War

[DEVILS ADJUTANT]

I think that would come under"cleaning up your own backyard" Arado.Greed, the problem of the world not just America.

[scottsmm]

Arado,

Take a look into what the French did in giving Saddam a power plant. You might be interested by what you see. We haven't taken any oil from Iraq, and at this point I think we should take some we've lost too many good young men over there for Bush's revenge. I feel like 9/11 opened that door, because the American population was petrified at another attack so Bush decided to go after the man who had his father on a hit list. btw there is a huge error in your last post, I believe you said that Saudi Arabia has no oil, you need to do a little better background on that (You won't see that from any good source I promise).

America already can easily get up to 220% industrial modifier, so if what's in production is a global SC then don't you think 1800+ MPPS is enough for one turn. I don't think anyone has to change America's industry to make it any better as it is it manages to equal Japan taking out ever country minus the USA, and the USSR in PT. That's one big income.

Those terrorists might have been from different countries, but they were Al-Queda members located in one of the most unresourceful places on the earth Afghanistan. Nothing more than one captial city, and lots and lots and lots of sand/mountains. We didn't try to liberate Iraq; because of 9/11 instead we attacked it because of a president who is finally out of office.

One last thing Arado, would be how come you didn't make any comments on one of my previous threads which talked strictly about greed and nationalism?

[Blashy]

So...SC needs the flexibility if we're to stray from the Blashy Syndrome of only historically defined transgressions. Its necessary to examine the full extent of "what ifs" and guarantees longevity for SC.

Actually SeaMonkey you have been around long enough to know I am a big proponent of various possibilities, the big push for increased flexibility with diplomacy probably came from me, at least I remember in SC2:Blitzkrieg beta testing continually being the biggest poster (Hubert might say "spammer", hehe) in the beta forums for more options with diplomacy and possibilities ON the board when you do DoW.

I just want it to make historical sense and not totally go into the virtually impossible and my opinion is that peace with Germany was not possible unless it was late 1945 and Germany still held on in some way and asked for an armistice.

To be precise, my opinion of holding on means the following in SC2 terms:

Major Axis Victory for Germany = the following parts still in German hands by December 1945:

Germany is secure (includes Poland), Italy has Rome plus 2 other cities.

Minor Axis Victory: Germany is still alive (includes Poland).

Or the idea that Germany could obtain a nuclear bomb... simply not possible, remember that to this day it is still the most expensive scientific project ever undertaken. Germany was nowhere near having the resources to do what USA did. Ok so not impossible but if the Axis invested in nuclear tech (if it existed) then it would pretty much sink its economy in it and put all its eggs in one basket "hoping" it would be enough to stop the Allies and negotiate peace.

The project also displays USA's economic might, they were severely outproducing the Axis (combined!) by 1941 and they were putting billions in that project. The idea that the Axis could somehow DEFEAT the Allies when they are being outproduced in all areas by everyone as early as 1941 is simply not looking at it from a sheer numbers perspective and I do not believe that having the better commanders (still debatable) would have made a difference because the Allies would have needed to be total idiots to screw up their humongous advantage.

[SeaMonkey]

Look Blashy, please don't read me wrong, I would never diminish the effort you have made here and in many ways SC has gone down the path we have both agreed upon.

Here's where we digress, you consider an Axis victory "impossible", now I know you mean that in a literal sense and I somewhat agree, but theoretically.....well..you know. Remember facts and circumstances can intertwine in such a manner that truth can be stranger then fiction, but you remain adamant.

I'm not saying you're wrong, what I'm saying is SC will evolve into a modding platform that exists in the same mold as TOAW, and we need the tools of that flexibility. No doubt, witness what Hubert has already created and realize that is the SC future.

Blashy, you are a very valuable part of that future, but IMO, you need to display a little more hypothetical variation in your pondering of WW2 events, probabilities and possibilities. Is that really so bad!

Blashy, you have to consider an unfolding of history that is not limited by the WW2 timeline. Yes, in those constraints, Germany could not have achieved an operational A-Bomb, but I must remind you the same referals you make to Germany's economy you could make to post WW2 USSR's also. You do realize that the Soviet Union did not research the A-Bomb from scratch, but stole the technology, Germany is fully capable of that endeavor also.

Again, in your view of the parameters of 1941 with productivity focussed on war effort, I too agree, no matter what the blunders. My question is the commitment to "focus" on the war effort in which the USA is highly lacking even though its leaders(FDR) are headed in that direction. The question is how can that be derailed to a certain extent, because if it can be done, then you have more parity in resources, Allies vs Axis.

The USA is paramount to the Allied advantage, so the "what if" circumstances, and hence the victory conditions of a Global SC will hinge upon their activation, the later, the better for the Axis.

OK, this post is way past its prime, perhaps it is time to start a new thread about what the Global SC conditions and the mechanics of the game should revolve around. I'm not a beta, I have to guess at what progress/stages you guys are in, but to leave out the forum, I think is a big mistake.

Thanks to dhucul for providing some direction.

[arado234]

Scottsmm if I said the Saudis have no oil then yes that was wrong.I know they have lots.Actually we have one of the largest oil deposits in the world but believe me the

tarsands are a MAJOR issue here because of the massive environmental problems they cause and the huge cost to extract the oil.

I didnt realise the Amis. could get that many mpps.Yes that should do it.I was also refering to SC2(I know this for P.T.O.).I beleive they can get a max of around 400 mpps even with the Saudi convoy.Maybe a little more

I cant remember if I made any comments about your blog on Nationalism and greed.I will have to go back and find it.I usually like to comment on that sort of thing unless someone has said what I agree with.

[scottsmm]

arado, you didn't say that, what you said however implied that. "One more thing since most if not all the sept 11 attackers were either Saudis or from Egypt why weren’t those countries attacked instead of Iraq. Maybe because of oil." In other words I interpreted this as Saudi Arabia and Egypt didn't have any oil while Iraq did. I'm sure you didn't mean it to come out that way it's just that's what you said.

As for the mpp question, I just thought that, because the US has never been made a full country on any SC map, that it would be around that number times that by 220 (Industrial modifier), and what do you think the total will be. My guess is in the low two thousands.

[arado234]

SeaMonkey,imho maybe some of the historical possibilites would cause to much of an overall effect on the game and would require huge changes.The biggest one I can think of is the very real possibity of Russia(or a large part of it)joining Germany if Hitler had the right mindset when he attacked.At the very least he could have caused a revolt and with Germany the only major influence it would have been very easy to establish a pro nazi govt,or even a full ally.I dont know if there would be any point in continuing the game.Some options would be good though.

Finally I just want to say that if I offended anyone here with my comments and views on American foreign policy I absoultly meant no disrespect at all towards Americans.

[arado234]

Scottsmm 2000mpps sounds about right in comparison.Blashy is right in that by 1941 America was out producing the Axis powers and this is while the Axis were still winning and werent being bombed or directly attacked.I have a very good book by John Ellis:World War Two,The Encyclopedia of facts and figures.Once it was certain Russia and England would survive the Axis had no hope.

[scottsmm]

True Arado just as long as the Allies had the willpower to stick it out from that point on the Axis would have no hope.

[arado234]

Scottsmm thats one of things the Axis were hoping for,but when you consider actually making peace with Hitler and the rest,that would be sheer lunacy.

[arado234]

Im playing a game of Op.Z(me Allies)against the Kman.We are both major rookies.He took China in Early 42 and was stompimg all over me but he ran out os steam.Its now early 44 and its freakin unbelievable what the Amis.Have.Ive got all my Carriers as jets.His arenot.My bombers have basiclly destroyed his commerce.Believe me this is through no real skill of mine but just the sheer numbers.The Russians are going to have a huge Army also and because he took China im thinking they will come sometime this year?When you look at this you have to really wonder what was Japan thinking.