bitchen frizzy Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Do you have an opinion on, say, films about the Normandy invasion? Because that's what I was hoping to discuss. Let me frame the question being asked of you differently: from the POV of an uninformed moviegoer, what is compellingly different about the heroics and sacrifice of a DD tank crewman vs. the heroics and sacrifice of an infantryman wading ashore? How many movies about the same general subject, with the same historical backdrop, is the moviegoing public willing to fund via ticket purchases? The differences between one "untold story of D-Day" and the next are differences that matter to enthusiasts and professionals. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnergoz Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Cast Brad Pitt as the TC in the turret of the DD tank, Clint Eastwood cheering him on as BG Roosevelt, bravely standing in the shingle, Angelina Jolie as the Maquis saboteur about to destroy the German pillbox at the end of the causeway and Ed Harris as the SS commander desperately running the gauntlet of Jabos to get his Tiger tank to the beach head, and you might just get some "non-enthusiast" people to pay to see it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watch-man Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 You're not the thread police and this is not your thread. It's not for you to say what is or is not discussed or who can or cannot say what. Don't think of me as the thread police, ordering you to do things, as I'm clearly not in a position to do that, nor is it my intent. Think of me more as Emily Post, advising you when you're acting like a heinously ill-mannered host and treating your guests shabbily. Let me frame the question being asked of you differently: from the POV of an uninformed moviegoer, what is compellingly different about the heroics and sacrifice of a DD tank crewman vs. the heroics and sacrifice of an infantryman wading ashore? How many movies about the same general subject, with the same historical backdrop, is the moviegoing public willing to fund via ticket purchases? The differences between one "untold story of D-Day" and the next are differences that matter to enthusiasts and professionals. The point wasn't to champion a movie about DD tanks - cartoon or otherwise. My point was - and is - to counter Sergei's ignorant comment that the Normandy invasion has been covered in detail on film, when in fact, almost none of it has, and what has been put on film has been done so inaccurately and in an uncompelling manner. If you want to start a discussion on "there are plenty of Normandy Invasion movies in the can already, why make another one" that's an entirely separate issue. But the answer to the question would still be the same. The question being "why will people want to pay to see it?" And the answer, as gunnergoz replied, tongue-in-cheek, is simple: Story, character, possibly the attraction of stars and who you've casted. Sometimes it is timing; release it a month after the Marines make an amphibious landing in Syria and all of a sudden, you've got allegory. Release it on June 6, 2044 and you've got commemmoration. Release it opposite someone else's D-Day movie and you've got a, well, typical Hollywood thinking. Like the summer of the asteroid movies, or having two competing OK Corral films. Why another movie on the Normandy Invasion? Let me put it to you another way. Sergei says there is no reason to do so. He says it is impossible because the stories are all used up. I am simply saying that is ridiculous. Given a good enough screenwriter, there is more than enough material to draw on, be it a kitchen-sink drama, a black comedy, or a romantic epic. If you think the last is unlikely, Charlton Comics did an entire issue in one of their pulp war comics - unusual for them with their anthologies, which usually had 2 or 3 stories per comic - about the landings; one POV was the GIs coming ashore while another was a German officer in charge of one of the Widerstandnesten, who was concerned about his French girlfriend behind the coast (another departure for a comic book aimed at 12 year old boys, who were likely not to care much about the female who was crapping up a good story with lots of shooting in it). The story was well written and the stories all merged at the end with the character of the German officer being especially morally ambiguous, ordering his men to die in defence of his bunker despite having so much, apparently, to live for. Thought provoking and poignant. But Sergei would have you believe it's been done before. Did the German officer in the bunker die for the same reason a US Marine dies in Fallujah? Timeless questions. Far more interesting than technical details about the canvas float screens of a DD tank, though I would love to see one in a movie, too. Didn't we all think there were "enough Vietnam movies" until Tropic Thunder came along? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Other Means Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Don't think of me as the thread police, ordering you to do things, as I'm clearly not in a position to do that, nor is it my intent. Think of me more as Emily Post, advising you when you're acting like a heinously ill-mannered host and treating your guests shabbily. You're not my guest. I have no obligation of hospitality to you. We do have a duty of civility on this board though and I'll honour it as I'm sure you will. The point wasn't to champion a movie about DD tanks - cartoon or otherwise. My point was - and is - to counter Sergei's ignorant comment that the Normandy invasion has been covered in detail on film, when in fact, almost none of it has, and what has been put on film has been done so inaccurately and in an uncompelling manner. If you want to start a discussion on "there are plenty of Normandy Invasion movies in the can already, why make another one" that's an entirely separate issue. But the answer to the question would still be the same. The question being "why will people want to pay to see it?" And the answer, as gunnergoz replied, tongue-in-cheek, is simple: Story, character, possibly the attraction of stars and who you've casted. Sometimes it is timing; release it a month after the Marines make an amphibious landing in Syria and all of a sudden, you've got allegory. Release it on June 6, 2044 and you've got commemmoration. Release it opposite someone else's D-Day movie and you've got a, well, typical Hollywood thinking. Like the summer of the asteroid movies, or having two competing OK Corral films. Why another movie on the Normandy Invasion? Let me put it to you another way. Sergei says there is no reason to do so. He says it is impossible because the stories are all used up. I am simply saying that is ridiculous. Given a good enough screenwriter, there is more than enough material to draw on, be it a kitchen-sink drama, a black comedy, or a romantic epic. If you think the last is unlikely, Charlton Comics did an entire issue in one of their pulp war comics - unusual for them with their anthologies, which usually had 2 or 3 stories per comic - about the landings; one POV was the GIs coming ashore while another was a German officer in charge of one of the Widerstandnesten, who was concerned about his French girlfriend behind the coast (another departure for a comic book aimed at 12 year old boys, who were likely not to care much about the female who was crapping up a good story with lots of shooting in it). The story was well written and the stories all merged at the end with the character of the German officer being especially morally ambiguous, ordering his men to die in defence of his bunker despite having so much, apparently, to live for. Thought provoking and poignant. But Sergei would have you believe it's been done before. Did the German officer in the bunker die for the same reason a US Marine dies in Fallujah? Timeless questions. Far more interesting than technical details about the canvas float screens of a DD tank, though I would love to see one in a movie, too. Didn't we all think there were "enough Vietnam movies" until Tropic Thunder came along? Sergei actually said "No part of Normandy landings is an untold story, at least from the American perspective. Everything about them has been told again, again, again and again, ad nauseum in millions of books, documentaries, movies, games and other works.". I'm sure you've re-read it yourself. I think this particular movie sounds crap, for reasons stated. What's interesting about throwing men against lead? To illustrate the futility of war? Don't we know that already? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackhorse Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Don't think of me as the thread police, ordering you to do things, as I'm clearly not in a position to do that, nor is it my intent. Think of me more as Emily Post, advising you when you're acting like a heinously ill-mannered host and treating your guests shabbily... Didn't we all think there were "enough Vietnam movies" until Tropic Thunder came along? Hmm..why hide behind a new name? Just use the one by which we all know you. I agree that good story-telling and movie-making go far to reduce over-exposure of a certain era/genre, although I would hardly call Tropic Thunder a "Viet Nam" Movie in the same sense as other movies about the Viet Nam War (Apocalypse Now, Deer Hunter, etc etc). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 I thought Deer Hunter was more about the after effects of Viet Nam than the war itself. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackhorse Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Dunno about "after effects". I'd say more "during effects". For after effects, I'd say "Born on the 4th of July" is closer to that than others. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 And then there is Coming Home. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackhorse Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 With the unfortunate exception of every single part of them. How many films have there been which featured or even depicted one of the Duplex Drive tanks, or showed what life was like for an M4 (or any other kind of tank) crew? Zero. Don't recall any first hand accounts by American tankers off-hand that would make decent fodder - not on the order of Tout's book or Wilson's FLAMETHROWER but surely there is fodder for same. After the popularity of THE BEAST about the Soviet tank crew in Afghanistan, one has to believe a movie from the POV of an American tank would be of interest. These guys were suicides every morning, rolling into action in tinder boxes. And they knew it. Fascinating stuff for a movie, just like World War I flying aces. Not a single film. The Tanks Are Coming is, IMO, a great tanker movie, that few know about. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/630343102X/sr=8-3/qid=1234553322/ref=olp_product_details?ie=UTF8&me=&qid=1234553322&sr=8-3&seller= 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnergoz Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 ...snip... I think this particular movie sounds crap, for reasons stated. What's interesting about throwing men against lead? To illustrate the futility of war? Don't we know that already? Personally, what was interesting about anything - what love story hasn't been told a million time? The numbers of tragic themes are fairly limited too. My position is that, given a good script and good actors, decent direction and perhaps a dash of luck and timing, there is an opportunity to sell anything. Already, SPR is ancient history and an "oldies" movie to a new generation. Perhaps the young people who have lost loved ones in Iraq or Afghanistan will find meaning in the drama of sending WW2 paratroopers to certain doom across a fire-laced causeway in a foreign land? It may be old news to US and to YOU, but it may not be to OTHERS. Were this not the case, book publishers and the entire entertainment industry would have been out of business ages ago. They re-generate all the time, because there are new audiences, all the time. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RadioactiveMan Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 I don't have anything to contribute regarding Normandy, but I would like to suggest some good war films that may be below your radar... or may not be. These are the battlefront forums, after all! The first is a Korean film called Tae Guk Gi, which apparently translates as The Brotherhood of War. Its about two brothers from South Korea who experience the Korean War. The story is fairly epic in scope, and follows the brothers from the early days of the war, to the intervention of the Chinese, and then finally to the final days of the war. Interestingly, Americans are never shown or is their involvement mentioned. This maybe makes sense because it is a Korean movie, but was refreshingly different for me as an American viewer. The movie does a great job exposing the deep emotional scars this war left on the Korean consciousness- and its a great yarn at the same time! The second film has just come out recently, I think on a limited release, and is called Waltz with Bashir. Its about Israeli soldiers recalling their experiences during the invasion of Lebanon. It looks beautiful, and has a lot of really amazing scenes that, I imagine, capture how things really were for the participants. There are interesting comparisons to be made between Lebanon in the '80s and what is happening now in Israel and also in Iraq. Both these films are subtitled, and Waltz with Bashir is animated, but if you don't mind that- or, if you enjoy that sort of thing - then they both are definitely worth checking out. Definitely two of the best films about war that I have seen. Be warned though, A Thin Red Line is also one of my favorite movies. I am surprised to see it get no love on these forums. EDIT: One more, just because I can't resist. A movie about war that has very little war in it: The Devil's Backbone. I won't spoil the plot of this one, but its a fun story that builds to a great ending. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackhorse Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 ...Be warned though, A Thin Red Line is also one of my favorite movies. I am surprised to see it get no love on these forums. EDIT: One more, just because I can't resist. A movie about war that has very little war in it: The Devil's Backbone. I won't spoil the plot of this one, but its a fun story that builds to a great ending. Thanks for the tip(s)... As for TRL....I, for one, liked it as well. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackhorse Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 The Tanks Are Coming is, IMO, a great tanker movie, that few know about. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/630343102X/sr=8-3/qid=1234553322/ref=olp_product_details?ie=UTF8&me=&qid=1234553322&sr=8-3&seller= Add to that the classic tank crew film Sahara starring Humphrey Bogart. http://www.amazon.com/Sahara-Humphrey-Bogart/dp/B00005R23T/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1234559371&sr=8-2 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 actually Antietam was the bloodiest small-arms battle in American History: ..but when did history ever get in the way of movie marketing... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Antietam Nope, lot's of cannon there, and they did execution All the best Andreas 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackhorse Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 actually Antietam was the bloodiest small-arms battle in American History: ..but when did history ever get in the way of movie marketing... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Antietam Not to pile on too much here, but I believe there is a difference between say "the bloodiest Day in American History" and the "Bloodiest Small Arms battle in American History." Antietam may have been the bloodiest 24 hour period in American hostory, but surely the Gettysburg Battle was bloodier despite being spread out over three days as opposed to just one. Total % of Total Union 23,040 27% Confederate 20,650-25,000 30%-34% Then there is also Cold Harbor with many claiming it as the bloodiest hour in American History. If we decide to factor in the differences between Battles, engagements, and fire fights, then we make it a little easier to discern, provided we agree on the classification of a particular action. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrocles Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Thanks for the tip(s)... As for TRL....I, for one, liked it as well. Overall, I liked TTRL! The scared-****less expression on Adrien Brody's young soldier face near the end scene is priceless! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watch-man Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 Personally, what was interesting about anything - what love story hasn't been told a million time? The numbers of tragic themes are fairly limited too. My position is that, given a good script and good actors, decent direction and perhaps a dash of luck and timing, there is an opportunity to sell anything. Yes, exactly, and I obviously agree with regards to the Normandy Invasion providing a useful backdrop or even the main story. What's interesting about throwing men against lead? Obviously, the way the story is told, and the investment you make in the characters. What was interesting about any movie, if you sum it down into one sentence? Shakespeare in Love - what was interesting about a poet who couldn't get laid? Apollo 13 - What was interesting about 3 guys who rode around the moon but didn't land on it? Saving Private Ryan - What's interesting about roaming around the countryside and throwing men against lead? &tc. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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