The art of the ambush: How?

[Bahger]

In the "Ambush Tutorial" scenario, initial positions are not changeable so obviously the Blue mission is primed and ready to go. It always turns into a bloodbath for me, though, and I wonder what I am missing here. I have all my infantry in "Hide" and with target arcs at short enough range that the idea is to get the Red militia into a kill-zone pretty close to Blue positions so as to avoid a long-range slugfest. However, there is always a long-range slugfest. My guys get spotted and fired on, they return fire and the initiative is lost. It's no longer an ambush. Making matters worse is that fact that the Strykers' pathfinding is still not good enough to maneuver them reliably into a pincer attack on pinned enemy forces.

The only thing I can think of trying is to focus my initial fire on a longer-range engagement with the eneny as soon as they enter the map to stop them from getting into cover in the buildings. Is this the tactical intent, do you think?

Target arcs become a liability, not an asset when the enemy initiate fire from beyond their range because troops not spotted or fired on by the enemy will not return fire when the militia shoots at other, spotted Blue positions.

Can anyone offer assistance? Many thanks.

[Secondbrooks]

Problem pretty much is that opponents sets overwatching positions to distance. Those things are bad as they consists big amount's of RPGs. In that kind situation your in pretty bad position already in start. Technically it might be good position if those RPGs wouldn't be where they are. And there's alot cover in your flanks which enemy can use to tie down your rightmost units, even encircle all of them.

If wishing to have only low or zero casualities i'd believe that there are better locations for ambush closer to mosgue (if you have time to move in them, i don't recall). I've played it only couple of times, and each time third of platoon's strenght gets wiped out as i remain in those position.

[Bahger]

Thanks, Secondbrooks. I just played it again and scored a Total Victory by extending all target arcs into the distance, so that the Red militia gets pinned before they even reach the crossroads, preventing them from taking up positions in the buildings that would give them good angles on my troops. I then used the Strykers very cautiously on the flanks.

I remain unconvinced that "Hide" and target arcs enable the player to mount ambushes with confidence. In fact, I would say that real ambushes are not possible in this game without a "Hold Fire" command.

A much better ambush tutorial would be one that enabled the player to choose the site of the ambush, and position his troops with intersecting fire-arcs, accordingly. The starting positions in the mission as designed place at least one infantry unit far too directly in the path of the enemy's advance, making the battle more of a standard defence than an ambush. I'd look for more tangentical arcs of fire if I were designing an ambush in this scenario.

[Secondbrooks]

I myself made it so (just played it thru 30 minutes ago) that rifle squads are facing backside of buildings killing every one trying to flank them and after coast is clear their idea was to withdraw. That went well. But i didnt' remember how fast enemy works. It's like massive wave when it hits i was able to regroup my men to new positions just partially in time.

[missinginreality]

I remain unconvinced that "Hide" and target arcs enable the player to mount ambushes with confidence. In fact, I would say that real ambushes are not possible in this game without a "Hold Fire" command.

You're right in that Hide and target arcs don't constitute an ambush as from what I've seen;

Hide limits spotting ability [forcing players with Hiding units to use Borg spotting, and

Units wont automatically come out of Hide when something comes into the target, only when they are fired upon.

This makes EGO and PBEM ambushes especially ineffective.

Indeed a Hold Fire command would be a useful thing

[Guest Guest]

deleted per user request

[missinginreality]

Usually one soldier will stay kneeling to spot, don't they? If you don't issue a hide order in CMSF, the troops will be spotted from ~100m+. Buildings and maybe trenches help in that regard, but vanilla concealment from bushes and trees is pretty bare if you aren't hiding.

not that I noticed recently they all just stick their heads in the sand [that's syrians mind you]

[ERISS]

Put your 2 MG on the roof (the HQ platoon is good where she is).

Put your 2 firsts squads on the roof, aiming far at the road.

Put the last one (near reds) to the building to the right, just under the roof, aiming to the right. They must be the sole injured/killed.

Never hide your squads (you have the technology advantage, don't want for the blank point range), else the last one sometimes when too much under supression.

Hurry your Strikers to fire mobs from afar, and just that: almost never more far (else they will be RPGed).

I succeded in having only one injured, no dead, nor destroyed Striker.

I think it's possible having our troops untouched.

[Secondbrooks]

Put your 2 MG on the roof (the HQ platoon is good where she is).

Put your 2 firsts squads on the roof, aiming far at the road.

Put the last one (near reds) to the building to the right, just under the roof, aiming to the right. They must be the sole injured/killed.

Never hide your squads (you have the technology advantage, don't want for the blank point range), else the last one sometimes when too much under supression.

Hurry your Strikers to fire mobs from afar, and just that: almost never more far (else they will be RPGed).

I succeded in having only one injured, no dead, nor destroyed Striker.

I think it's possible having our troops untouched.

How do you do it? From my obseravations and play-tests 4 RPG on overwatching positions will wreck havoc, they can extablish LOS and LOF to most of your men. I can't see how that could be done without major casualities.

As far as i can tell only way to do it without or with low casualities is to keep men out of RPG's way (and preferably SPG's too).

But this gets too spoiling and mission specific already.

[ERISS]

(Edit to my post above:

. Squads on the roof: One aiming at 12, the other at 10,

. Send one of your middle Striker protect left flank.)

My "only one injured" was with patch 1.6, maybe that's harder now.

[ERISS]

From my obseravations and play-tests 4 RPG on overwatching positions will wreck havoc, they can extablish LOS and LOF to most of your men.

That's why squads have not to hide: They must search actively:

see and fire first, as soon the RPG is pointing at the windows, else forbiddening to fire a second time.

I think personal aiming technology is very important here.

[Secondbrooks]

Oh you've played 1.06. That might explain something... not sure thou so much has changed.

Atleast my men didnt' see RPG's until they opened fire, all 4 launchers at once. Usually rockets hits quite close to my men killing, wounding and suppressing alot.

[Bahger]

In my experience, the only way to win this "ambush" scenario is to treat it as more of a prepared defense. A small-unit ambush in a built-up area against militia with RPGs would require more stealth and fire discipline than the game is designed to accomodate. As a prepared defense, the key is to hit the Red forces at long range as soon as they enter the map, holding them at arm's length and preventing them from getting the RPGs into cover so that the Strykers can be positioned (cautiously) to flank and form a pincer.

It's not an ambush, really. If there is any risk of losing the initiative through bad cover or fire discipline (both of which are the AI's responsibility, not the player's in this situation) then it is simply not prudent to attempt an ambush. A bungled ambush becomes very bloody for those attempting it and, as I say, the AI is to blame here.

A better approach to an ambush tutorial would be to allow the player to choose the exact site, placement of forces and intersecting fields of fire. Even then, there can be no stealth in CMSF; as soon as Blue spots Red, it's on, and it will be a prepared defense rather than a classic ambush with a well-defined kill-zone and strict fire discipline.

Perhaps Battlefront might think about this?

[hcrof]

I managed an excelent ambush in an ongoing game, A platoon of reserve, conscript infantry destroyed a pair of BMP's and a recon platoon for no losses.

To be fair I had guessed what he was going to do (Unload his men at that point) so I just told them all to hide and used a seperate spotter unit to watch them so I could unhide them as soon as they entered the kill zone. There was a certain amount of luck involved though!

The key is to put a building in between you and any of the enemys overwatching troops.

With the Americans though it is probably better to just engage them head on because there is less uncertainty involved. Using conscript reservists modifies your tactics somewhat!

[Secondbrooks]

I managed to wipe out fourth of Marine platoon in one ambush with conscript/green insurgents having just slightly superiour numbers. I'm quite proud of how it worked. Basically 15 men as "cap" to halt opponent's movement, while two Toyota's with MGs, 2 snipers and 2 RPG-teams + one MG-team were hiding in and behind buildings in flanks of marines. + some unit's working as flank security (what ever space was left on, it was small map). That was pretty much by the book ambush.

After that with slowly falling back from harm's way i managed to reduce their platoon to less than one squad (which was manuvering to our flanks instoppable). Ofcourse Marines didn't much use building as cover but basically tried to blitz right into village's center by using village's main road (covered with fences, so they had pretty good cover from direct fire if they remained low)... My blokes were mostly stationed to both sides of that road tossing grenades and spraying.