T-90SA vs M1A1 FEP

[istari]

Having just played USMC Bad Moon Rising, I'm curious about the relative strengths of the T-90SA vs the Marines' M1A1 FEP.

(For context, I used to be totally familiar with the M1 variants, but I've been out of the modern wargaming space since Steel Panthers II, and now there are all these new models I've never encountered before! :>)

Based on the manual and some additional Googling, here's my understanding of the M1A1 FEP:

* It's the M1A1HC with...

* M1A2's GEN II TIS

* GPS + other electronics to offer detailed coordinates from LRF out to 8000m. Presumably important for calling for fires, etc.

* Eyesafe LRF

It DOES not have the following from the M1A2/M1A2 SEP:

* CITV - so TC is dependent on gunner's sight for long-range imaging

* FCBC2 - so no digital battlefield awareness

* 3rd generation DU armor

Is this basically correct?

If so, it sounds like the M1A1 FEP is almost an exact match for the T-90SA. They both have advanced thermal imaging but no hunter-killer for TC. Neither has battlefield "internet" for enhanced SA. M1A1 FEP has superior survivability for crew, T-90SA has Shtora active defense.

Basically, as a commander it seems that I should treat the T-90SA as equivalent to the M1A1 FEP, while the M1A2 SEP is a cut above (CITV, FCBC2, 3rd gen DU armor)

Agree?

Chris

P.S. Is the ESSA thermal imaging sight on the T-90SA equivalent to the 2nd generation TIS on the M1A1 FEP? I ask because in USMC Bad Moon Rising, I was surprised to find that the T-90s apparently sighted me first and opened fire. I was counting on the new 2nd gen TIS to give me first sight advantage.

[dima]

P.S. Is the ESSA thermal imaging sight on the T-90SA equivalent to the 2nd generation TIS on the M1A1 FEP? I ask because in USMC Bad Moon Rising, I was surprised to find that the T-90s apparently sighted me first and opened fire. I was counting on the new 2nd gen TIS to give me first sight advantage.

Yep. Russians can't make decent modern TI's so they import them from the French.

[Sivodsi]

in USMC Bad Moon Rising, I was surprised to find that the T-90s apparently sighted me first and opened fire. I was counting on the new 2nd gen TIS to give me first sight advantage.

I think who sights who depends to a large degree on which tank is moving. In CMSF the moving tank is penalized heavily.

Also I found that the smoke the M1s pop allows them to fire through it, but the T90s cannot. All they see is a flash of the M1s cannon before the shell smashes into their armor.

Finally, the armor of the M1 FEP is superior to the T90 at range. While they can both shrug off hits, T90s are likely to sustain damage and die more quickly.

My impressions after PBEMing Bad Moon Rising from the Russian side

[Roter Stern]

From my experience the T-90 is a far stretch away from matching the M1FEP in both firepower and mobility. Despite being a "smaller and lighter" tank the T-90 is not as fast as the M1, despite the fact that mobility is supposed to be the T-90s biggest advantage. Also from what I've seen, the M1 is also far superior at shooting on the move, especially at long-range targets.

As far as survivability, the T-90 doesn't even remotely come close - out of probably a hundred T-90s I've lost in the last few weeks, only a handful managed to survive the first hit. What's worse is that the vast majority of those T-90s knocked out failed catastrophically, killing the crew and causing casualties to surrounding units - as opposed to the M1s where most of the knock-outs don't even case a fire.

I'm also yet to see the "Shtora" make a considerable contribution - either it's too little too late or is completely ineffective.

[dima]

Also I found that the smoke the M1s pop allows them to fire through it, but the T90s cannot. All they see is a flash of the M1s cannon before the shell smashes into their armor.

That shouldn't happen. Either both can fire through M1's smoke or none of them.

Can you provide a savegame or replay?

[istari]

Thanks for the replies so far.

I've only been fighting against the T-90, and they seem quite capable. Agree that they're vulnerable to catastrophic hits, and as far as sighting perhaps the T-90s were still when my Abrams were moving. That surprises me because once my Abrams sighted them (after they fired) they were also rolling forwards. I'd been counting on my Abrams to sight them first in a meeting engagement where both are moving, but no such luck.

Also agree that given that both are using 2nd generation FLIR, they should either both see through the smoke (standard) or both be blocked (thermal obscurant).

I'm also curious about the statement that the T-90s are inferior in shooting at range. My Abrams were rolling forwards, and the T-90s were rolling towards me. Both were firing on the move and scoring equally, but I probably need to do a number of repeats to verify this.

Finally - I had my Abrams tank commanders unbuttoned going into the fight. I'm realizing that at night, that might do much good. Perhaps sighting is improved when the TC is buttoned up during night operations?

Chris

[Guinnessman]

Agree about the catastrophic kills on the T90 - does the T90 still store ammunition in the turret? Also, if I remember rightly the ammo on the 125mm gun is two-piece and the charge doesn't have a casing, I seem to remember reading an article that blamed this for the poor survivability of the old T72.....

[Clevinger]

Yes, the auto-loader is placed in a carroussel (does this word exist in english? ) near the main gun, like in the T-72! That means if the turret is hit... Well, the crew is sitting on live ordnance!

[Sivodsi]

That shouldn't happen. Either both can fire through M1's smoke or none of them.

Can you provide a savegame or replay?

Sure will, just as soon as I find time to dig through my gmail. Busy days recently!

[thelmia]

First time playing "Bad Moon" I lost one M1 to stupidity, exposing its flank when I thought I was done killing all the enemy tanks. One other died from a close range frontal hit. That was it. My strategy? Move forward in a line with the 'Hunt' command. Yeah, I'm a real tactical genius.

Even outnumbered 2:1 the Abrams utterly dominated. I'm happy if that's the real life truth.

The T-90 doesn't seem very dangerous if it's thrown head on into a mass of M1s. Not really any different than the T-72 so far. Maybe better at hitting with the first shot, but against the M1 that's not enough if it just bounces off. I guess it's another case of having to be smart and careful in how the weapon system is employed...