M249 transforms into M4 mid-turn

[c3k]

More testing.

I used the sole survivor of an M240 weapons team as the buddy aid guy for the red-dotted M249 gunner. The M240 soldier only had an M4. As a weapon specialist, and not equipped with an M203, I thought that would bias any internal coding towards him gaining the missing M249.

It didn't happen. He went through the buddy aid routine, but was still left with his M4. I then TARGETED a nearby empty building. He went through his magazine in the M4 and reloaded...the M4. No M249.

I also ran the buddy aid with the original 6 man squad, with only 5 guys left. To preclude one of the two M203 gunners from doing it again, I split of the AT team. That was two men strong: one was the designated marksman, the other was the designated AT specialist. Both had M4's.

The marksman was the soldier who enacted buddy aid. Same results as the previous tests. No M249.

So, I do not think the M249 exists in some sort of cached, hidden weapon status. I think it is gone. But why?

Can anyone else think of a way of testing this that I may have missed?

I believe I have tested enough to disprove the ammo theory.

I believe I have tested enough to disprove that a buddy providing aid will gain the M249 which is not listed anymore.

I am intensely curious about this.

Obviously the M249 was removed from the game by the software. The reason it was removed has been postulated as being because it was out of its special ammo unit. Resupplying with ammo did not make it re-appear.

It was stated that the M4 which replaced the M249 was probably carried by the soldier due to a possible previous buddy aid. I will investigate that possibility.

If a soldier has weapons which the player is unable to see, would replacement of the visible weapon, the M249, by the invisible weapon, the M4, result in the M249 being carried invisibly? Essentially, do the two weapons exchange places?

If so, how do you regain the previous weapon?

Does buddy aid track invisible weapons?

Thoughts?

Regards,

Ken

p.s. I recognize this is not a huge issue. It does point out many programming details about this game and highlights the 1:1 coding and visuals. Thanks.

[Battlefront.com]

Everything looks good to me, or at least I see nothing wrong on the surface here. Some points:

1. For coding reasons (i.e. saving on needing more AI programming) the soldier does not switch back to his primary weapon until it is needed. It is there, and he will use it if it has ammo, but until he is actively engaged in combat (not sure about Area Fire) the secondary weapon will remain visible.

2. The ammo bars apply to the entire unit, not to any individual. Therefore, there is no way to know if your M249 gunner is out of ammo since that is tracked one level lower, which would be a distraction to show. And yeah, a M249 gunner can burn through 200 rounds very quickly depending on circumstances.

3. Weapon recovery/swapping using Buddy Aid is situationally dependent. There is random chance involved, however there is also some logic used too. Weight is the primary factor. For example, for a grenadier (M203) to have the capacity to carry a M249 and its ammo would basically mean shedding all of his M203 grenades and, probably, the M4/M203. Remember, soldiers are pretty much all overloaded to begin with, both in terms of weight and in terms of bulk. Weight is, therefore, very important factor which is influenced by lots of stuff, such as AT4s, ammo, basic kit, etc. The M249 gunner probably managed to pick up the M4 because he was low on ammo, thus freeing up weight capacity for the new weapon.

Another factor, besides luck and weight, is the perceived value of the weapon to be picked up vs. the weapon in hand. Is a M4/M203 less valuable to carry than a M249? I don't think it's a clear cut choice, therefore the code doesn't say "M249 should always be picked up, at all costs, no matter what has to be dropped".

3. Weapons not currently in the hands of a soldier are still assigned to that soldier. That's actually the only way it can work from a code standpoint. Well, unless there was a specific routine to remove it from its assignment. That happens only when the weapon is lost, through buddy aid or perhaps some other circumstance I'm not thinking about right now.

Hmmm... I think I covered all of your observations, yes?

Steve

[c3k]

Steve,

Yes, thanks. But, I will still test. I want to find that M249. You are telling me it is there. I have not seen it reappear. What do you suggest I do to get the M249 back in action?

If it does appear, that would confirm what you're saying is happening behind the scenes. Right now, that has yet to occur.

Given a fully reloaded squad - at the point the 6 men resupply with 2,360 rounds of 5.56 ammo on top of the green ammo bars they already have, and the M249 gunner is in good condition - how do should I test for the presence of the M249?

Thanks,

Ken

[c3k]

Addendum.

This really sucks. In a weird way.

Next test: I reloaded the 6 men with 2360 additional rounds. Now, instead of 10 bars of ammo (total red through green) they have 14 bars, the maximum visible amount.

I had them area fire. The M249 gunner had to reload his M4: he kept the M4.

Next, I ran them back into the building 20 meters away from the Syrian building which still had Syrians in it. Unfortunately, the M249 gunner did not get a good firing position; there were too few windows. He did not fire his M4.

Okay, tweak time. I started outside the building with the reloaded squad. I split the squad.

Weirdness: the M249 gunner was in the second team. When I split the squad, first team had full (14 bar) 5.56, empty 7.62 and middling 40mm grenades and hand grenades.

Second team had the same grenade and 7.62 levels, BUT ZERO 5.56!!!

Regardless, I sent this ammoless team into the building. They saw the Syrians and engaged them. Both M4 gunners fired several rounds. The M203 gunner fired grenades and continued to do so.

THE M249 REAPPEARED!!

ARGH.

Both M4's out of ammo. No ammo bars at all. The M249 only fired several rounds. They never fired any 5.56 again.

So, why the hell didn't the ammo resupply yield any belted ammo????

Steve, I appreciate your patience. I also enjoy the hidden thoroughness with which this game models combat. I'd expect nothing less.

Two questions remain:

How do I get the M249 back in action?

Why did the split squad keep ALL the 5.56 ammo in one team?

Regards,

Ken

[c3k]

So, to recap: the M249 gunner used the M4 and only the M4 until the ammo for the M4 totally ran out.

The ammo ran out because, despite starting with full green ammo, then ACQUIRING 2,360 rounds for 6 men (an even distribution, not saying that is what is modelled, would yield 390 rounds per man) giving a full ammo bar, all green and all bright green bars illuminated, the team with the M249 gunner ended up with NO 5.56 ammo after splitting the squad.

Earlier it was stated that the gunner stopped firing the M249 because it ran out of ammo and that unslinging the heretofore hidden M4 (possibly acquired through buddy aid) was faster than reloading the M249 (which might not even have any ammo due to a separate ammo tracking for belted 5.56 vice loose).

So, the M249 gunner, with no extra ammo was able to fire a few rounds from his M4 at the enemy. I assume these were his final in-magazine rounds.

Now, the ammoless M4 was deemed less useful than the M249. The M249 rematerialized and fired. Until it ran out of ammo, a few rounds later.

Perhaps the M249's utility is measured against the M4 on a round for round basis. If the M249 only had, say, 15 rounds left, then the M4 with a full 30 round magazine was better. The TacAI would not switch to a lesser weapon. Nor would it switch to a better weapon while in the midst of firing. (Hmmm, M4 down to 14 rounds, swap to M249 with 15 rounds. Two shots later switch back to M4. Continue as needed to zero rounds. Ugh.)

Is that correct?

That would make some sense. However, it flies in the face of the reason given for switching TO the M4 in the first place: that the M249 had run out of ready ammo.

If the M249 still had ammo in the magazine, why stop firing the first time?

If the M249 did not have ammo left, where did the final M249 shots come from?

How do I re-ammo an M249?

Thanks,

Ken

[Battlefront.com]

Sounds like a UI bug on the ammo levels. I've never seen that reported before. I'll double check with Charles about that.

As for the M249 not coming back online for Area Fire, I was afraid that would be the case. I'll mention it to Charles and see if he can code it so the soldier reverts to its primary weapon for area fire missions.

Thanks for sticking with it

Steve

[c3k]

I'm not sure it's a matter of sticking _with_ it as much as banging my head _against_ it.

I've got savegames available. Of course.

Regards,

Ken

[c3k]

More testing.

The out-of-ammo team with the M249 gunner using the M4: I can consistently regain the M249 but ONLY if they remain out of ammo (as indicated by the 5.56 ammo status window being void of any color bars) and engage an enemy. Then, and only then, will the M249 gunner swap his M4 out for the heretofore hidden M249.

At most, the M249 will fire 5 bursts. I cannot determine how many rounds are fired per burst. Perhaps 5.

Again, after an ammo resupply, why wasn't the M249 back as being primary?

Is M249 belted ammo not part of the ammo carried in vehicles?

If not, will that be rectified? If yes, then obviously the TacAI routine needs to be adjusted.

Since the M249 has 5 bursts of ammo left, why did the soldier stop firing it originally and switch to the hidden M4?

Thanks,

Ken

[Battlefront.com]

We've not had any reports of ammo allocation issues with splitting Squads before. Which I find odd because if there was a systemic problem I can't imagine how this would not have been brought to our attention before. People split Squads all the time, including myself yesterday So not sure what is going on with that one.

There is definitely no issue with the 5.56 in the vehicle. As I corrected myself above, the system does not deal with the difference between belted and clipped ammo. When resupplying your M249 gunner will try to grab 200 rounds at a time, if possible, and if not then grab a partial load. The proportions are determined by the needs of the others in the unit as well as the total quantity of ammo available (of course!).

Also, as I said the M4 will remain in hand until the Soldier determines that he should be using the M249 again. That decision comes up when he goes to fire at a target, not before. The reason for that is that it simply wasn't worth writing TacAI to attempt a logical decision when to switch back.

Steve

[c3k]

Steve,

Thanks. So, it seems I've uncovered a problem.

Point: "We've not had any reports of ammo allocation issues with splitting Squads before." Well, you have a report now. Savegame available. The team with the M249 gunner had zero ammo whereas the fullup squad had been showing 14 bars. Perhaps this is some oddity. If it is, well, it determined by the computer code.

Point: "Also, as I said the M4 will remain in hand until the Soldier determines that he should be using the M249 again." With TARGET or TARGET LIGHT against an area target the M249 does NOT come back. The M4 remains.

Okay, more testing...More weirdness.

I took the out of ammo 3 man team and gave them 2360 rounds of ammo. I then sent them searching for a live enemy. As you stated, there is an error in the code which treats area targets different than live targets.

I found some Syrians. As you postulated, my M249 gunner switched IMMEDIATELY to his M249. Good. Then it got weird.

He retained the M249. He'd fired, perhaps, 3-5 bursts, and reloaded the M249 with a fresh box magazine (I assume it holds 200 rounds). Now, there were no longer any visible enemy. Recap: M249 present, freshly loaded with new magazine, all ammo bars visible (14), no visible enemy.

I decided to burn off some ammo. I TARGETED some open ground 34 meters away. (The furthest LOS from the M249er's window.

Instead of ever firing his M249, all he did was throw grenades. (I'll retest later with a longer distance. Oh, yes. I'll retest..)

More weirdness: While under the area fire TARGET command some Syrians popped into view in the house 20 meters distant. What did my fully ammoed up, freshly reloaded with a new magazine, M249 gunner holding his M249, do? He immediately switched to an M4 to fire at the Syrians!!!!

The Syrians went out of LOS very quickly. The M249 gunner retained the M4 for the rest of the turn.

Hey, what are the odds I have a savegame? You got it: 100%.

Savegames available for all...

In sum, there seems to be a problem with the TacAI weapon choosing algorithm, at least in regards to the M249 vice the M4. There also seems to be a problem with the ammo distribution system with split squads. There also seems to be a problem with the original decision to switch FROM the m249 - postulated as being due to the M249 running out of amm - because proof exists that once the M4 ran out of ammo, the M249 was then fired...so it had NOT run out of ammo.

These could all be rooted in ammo issues and the weight given to firepower from that ammo in the AI routines.

But hey, I'm not a programmer: I'm a guy whose hard-drive is FILLED with savegames.

Let me know if you want to see any of this fun.

Regards,

Ken

[Moon]

While under the area fire TARGET command some Syrians popped into view in the house 20 meters distant. What did my fully ammoed up, freshly reloaded with a new magazine, M249 gunner holding his M249, do? He immediately switched to an M4 to fire at the Syrians!!!!

Why the four !!!! ? Seems like a viable choice to me. At 20 meters you're in close combat range. toting an M249 at that distance may make sense in an FPS game, but in reality I'd pick the lightweight M4.

The area fire "weirdness" is not weird at all - if you give an area target within hand grenade distance and the soldier has grenades, then he will do exactly as you have seen: he'll use his hand grenades because they have the best "area effect".

Anyway, thanks for the in-depth testing.

[c3k]

Moon,

Am I to take your response that you do not recognize ANY issues with what I've posted?

C'mon: I'm holding a fully loaded M249 in my hands. An enemy pops up about 20 meters away: are you _seriously_ contending that switching weapons is the appropriate response? You don't really want to start a thread on THAT, do you?

In my post I grant that 34 meters for the area target may've been too close. I haven't tested that yet (how far can you throw a grenade? I know when I did it that 100' would've gotten me signed on the Yankees!). I am attempting to get the M249 back to normal operations: using it in area fire was my first attempt.

Finally, or maybe not , the guy is the frickin' unit's M249 gunner. He has an M249. He has M249 ammo (sometimes); what do I need to do to get him to reapply himself to his proper MOS?

If the M4 is the better choice, is THAT why he swapped it in the first place? You know, that place about 4 pages ago when he had a firefight 20 meters away. He fired his M249 for a while, then, supposedly when the M249 magazine ran out, instead of reloading, he switched to the M4? Or at least that's been what's been postulated.

And please, don't try invidious comparisons with FPS games. I certainly have not brought up ANY other computer game in this thread. I certainly have never decried any CM game for not being more like an FPS. They are comic strips: CM is a novel. (I won't put words in your mouth if you won't put them in mine.)

The M249 team, when I split it, ended up with no 5.56 ammo. Yet, the squad from which it split had started with 10 bars of ammo in the 5.56 ammo window. Steve noted that as a problem which has not ever been reported. I have a savegame. Do you consider it reported? Provisionally, at least, until someone at BF.C requests and sees the savegame?

As I stated earlier, I do not consider this an insurmountable problem with CMx2. Yet, it seems something isn't quite right. Is this worth your time to look into it? I don't know.

I think I'll make some more tests. And post about them! Have you seen my thread on savegame titles? Yeah, it's because of all these savegames from this issue which has highlighted the fact that I cannot read all 45 characters used to create the savegame file when I look at the 37 character savegame listings.

Thanks,

Ken

[Dennis50]

If I am toting a m249 ...and the enemy opens up on us at 60 foot range ..take it to the bank moon, that m249 is gonna light up. When it's empty and we're up close and personal then the m4 comes out. So in reality you are going to drop the 249. Interesting.

Gunz

[Elmar Bijlsma]

Well, the ammo being unevenly divided sure seems a problem. But it doesn't seem to be something that happens frequently. You are, AFAIK, the first. Even so, probably best if it didn't happen at all.

The grenades being thrown seem not all odd. Sure, at times it would probably make more real life sense for the guys to open up on the enemy with firearms instead of reaching for a grenade. Within grenade throwing distance the AI gotta have some preference for tossing grenades or they never would get used at all. There's no way for the AI to tell the difference when it would look best to not use grenades. Heck, I think we could have a lengthy discussion right here about what would appropriate on this forum and never reach an agreement, so what would you expect from the poor AI?

On the Minimi issue: it's definitely... quirky. A problem? I don't think so. Not really.

What has started as a good find with good eye for detail has turned into obsessiveness of the restraining order kind.

[c3k]

More testing...

This is frustrating.

I took the savegame just AFTER the M249 gunner swapped BACK to the M4.

The M249 gunner reloaded his M4. The live enemy showed again. He switched BACK to the M249!! So, Moon, do you still say the M4 is the better weapon? Argh.

NOW he seems to be doing what he should.

The split team ammo issue still stands.

Hey, savegame available.

But, you knew this was going to happen, I found another oddity.

I did all this to test the area fire beyond hand grenade range. I ordered the 3 man team to area fire TARGET at over 100 meters. They did. Unfortunately, about 10 meters away was a destroyed BTR-60. The M249 gunner fired his M249 at the area target: every single round hit the BTR-60. I mean, how did he have LOS (tank ignored) but then not have LOF? (I think this was discussed previously: if so, my apologies.) At what point would he stop firing?

Oh, savegame available.

Thanks,

Ken

[c3k]

Edit previous post: I did not mean to add the last few sentences. I thought I'd deleted them. There have certainly been posts by BF.C that vehicles do NOT block LOS but do block enemy (?) LOF. Hence, no grey TARGET line due to the BTR blockind the M249, since the LOS was not blocked. However, per previous threads, the line of fire was blocked. At least that's my understanding of it...

OCD? Nah. I'm curious and digging into it as deeply as I can with the limited tools available. I'm also curious why it happened. If it happened once, it can and will happen again. That is a coding issue. I've never said it's a BIG issue....

Thanks,

Ken

[Battlefront.com]

C3k,

Dude, you're obsessing about this Almost every "oddity" you have identified isn't. The two things that you have pointed to that are of interest to me are these:

1. Ammo did not distribute correctly.

2. Area Fire does not trigger a switch back to the primary weapon.

I have no idea what is going on with #1, but whatever the problem is you are probably the first to have experienced it ever. This is the sort of thing people notice, especially since splitting squads is so common. Either that or there really isn't a problem, though I can't think of why that would be. If you can reproduce this, and get me a Save before the split (identifying exactly which dude to look at), I'll pass it along. It sounds like you have such a save so send to steve@battlefront.com.

As for #2, I've mentioned it to Charles. It does seem to be a logic flaw. Whether he has time to fix it now or later, I don't know. But the request has been made.

As for your last "oddity", it also isn't Vehicles are not* perfect forms of protection, believe it or not. There are all sorts of ways for rounds to find their way to the other side, by skipping under, going through a window, bouncing off some bit of metal here or there, etc. So you're guys are pumping rounds at them just like they would if they were in a building, bunker, or any other form of good (but not perfect) form of protection. At the very least it is keeping the enemy unit from moving or poking its weapons up and over and returning fire.

Think about it. What would you say if you knew an enemy unit was behind a vehicle and none of your guys would shoot at it, then the enemy unit pops up and rakes you with fire? You'd be saying we need to do somefink about it, wouldn't you? Well, just think of this as we have already done somefink

Steve

* note, I forgot that key "not" qualifier in my initial post. Damn, I'm always always doing that!

[Battlefront.com]

Charles has just informed me that issue #2, not switching back to the primary for Area Fire, has been fixed Now soldiers employ the same logic for that as they do for shooting at identified targets.

Steve

[c3k]

Excellent!! Now I can sleep at night. It's been hard, this obsession, but now that everything's good, I can rest.

WAIT!! What about the ammo distribution? Argh. Back to staying up late and testing...

Thanks,

Ken