88 L/71 in N. Africa question

[Hpt. Lisse]

While researching a WWII piece, and ran across the wiki entry for Battle of Kasserine Pass. It contained a sub-article for Battle of Sidi Bou Zid, linked below:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Sidi_Bou_Zid

I believe the author incorrectly notes the usage of “…German 8.8 cm KwK 43 anti-tank guns.” In the Battle segment. It even links to the wiki listing for the 2nd gen. 88 gun.

Are you aware of the use of the 88 L/71 gun during the Africa campaign? Was it even in production at that point? (Let’s see, that’d be Feb. 1943)

The author quotes two articles – I took the trouble to read them. Only one of them uses the term “88mm anti-tank guns”, and that could easily be referring to the Flak 18/36’s employment as an anti-tank weapon.

However, I could not find a production listing for the various 88 L/71 AT weapons by month per se while searching this afternoon.

What say you?

Many Thanks,

Hpt. Lisse

PS The well-researched TOE when QB CMAK in that time frame does NOT make the 88 l/71 available...

[Redwolf]

It's the /56 but it expanded in the heat

The true Pak43 only appeared a couple months later, but I dunno about the 43/41 with the improvised carriage.

[dieseltaylor]

I cannot see why they would bother to send them to Tunisia , unless for testing, as the vanilla ones could do the job. Just a thought- and I am sure proof can be found if they were deployed.

Another great puzzle for the forum!

Edit

Damm I'm good

88 mm gun - FlaK 41

As early as 1939 the Luftwaffe, now in charge of anti-aircraft defenses instead of the army, asked for newer weapons with even better performance. Rheinmetall responded with a new 88/L71 design whose improved muzzle velocity allowed it to reach altitudes of 15,000 m (48,000 ft), considerably greater than the older design's 10,600 m (32,000 ft). Improvements in reloading further raised the firing rate, with 20 to 25 rounds a minute being quoted. Two types of gun barrels were used, with three or four sections.

On the downside, the FlaK 41 was a complex weapon. It was prone to problems with ammunition, and cases often jammed on extraction after firing. The first examples were used in Tunisia, but due to problems in service they were then used exclusively in Germany, where they could be properly maintained and serviced. Only 157 FlaK 41 guns were in use as of August of 1944, and 318 in January of 1945.

A final adaptation let the FlaK 41 be mounted on the FlaK 37 carriage, known as the FlaK 37/41. Only 13 were produced.

The FlaK 41 gun was also used as a dedicated anti-tank gun, the PaK 43. This used a new split-trail carriage with the gun much closer to the ground, making it far easier to hide and harder to hit. It also came standard with a much stronger and more angled armor shield to provide better protection. The standard armament of the Tiger II tank was based on this gun but slightly modified. Both versions were able to penetrate about 200 mm of armor at 1000 m, letting it defeat any tank in the world.

[Hpt. Lisse]

Ah, but wait...

I put the same question to George Parada, at the highly regarded "Achtung Panzer!" website. His take on it was,

"Hi,

Germans only used 88mm Flak 36 L/56 in North Africa.

George"

Perhaps the Flak 41 was only used in a AA capacity at the ports of Tunis and/or Bizerte? Would a commander throw the new/experimental Flak 41 up on the front line for AT duty like that?

Inquiring minds want to know...

Thanks,

Hpt. Lisse

[Redwolf]

That quoted passage doesn't refer to the PaK, it's the longer FlaK.

They would send the good stuff to N.A. because of the range advantage.

[dieseltaylor]

Agreed the quote refers to the Flak version but if it were originally a Flak weapon the time of deployment might likely be before the ATG was concocted. I think the gun weighed in at 6 tonnes and was a pig to move so using it on a Tunisian battlefield - especially given its own ammo requirements makes it seem unlikely.

I can understand the Flak being used/trialled as a higher rate of fire and range would be useful in protecting the vital ports.

Incidentally

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8.8_cm_KwK_43

My feeling is that either version of an L71would be unlikely at Kasserine.

[Redwolf]

Unlikely - sure.

[Hpt. Lisse]

Thanks for your input - I edited the Wiki article today.

[CMFDR]

from Feldgrau.net:

As far as 8,8 cm Flak 41 in Africa is concerned, 44 guns of the initial series were sent in early 1943 on Rommel's request for high performance antitank guns from August 1942. Some half of these guns was lost in the sea, but the rest reached Africa. By the way, the 8,8 cm Flak 41 was a completely different gun than the earlier 8,8 cm Flak L/56 (i.e. 18, 36 and 37), designed from the begining around new high performance ammunition.

http://www.feldgrau.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=15319

(no source quoted sadly)

Hope it helps

[dieseltaylor]

Good find JM.

Curiously a WeBoB member [and his brother] live in that small village the original FeldGrau poster lives in. Spooky!

[CMFDR]

Some more:

The new German antiaircraft-antitank 88-mm (3.36 in) gun (8.8-cm Flak 41) was described in some detail in Tactical and Technical Trends No. 29 p. 5 with two sketches of the gun on page 6. The following additional details are taken from a report on three damaged guns of this type that were recovered in North Africa.

http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/ttt/german-88mm-gun.html

http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/ttt07/german-88mm-flak41.html

http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/ttt/ammunition-german-88mm-flak.html

cheers

[dieseltaylor]

Very interesting. I liked this bit

It is probable that some of these guns have been provided with self-propelled mounts, thus enabling them to be used for antitank as well as antiaircraft purposes. Such weapons would be a formidable answer to our own tank-destroyer with the long 155. The armor penetration at long antitank range is practically 6 inches, and the trajectory is obviously quite flat.

Ah yes the TD with the long 155 .......