John Kettler Posted July 27, 2008 Share Posted July 27, 2008 Your ship just came in! I found out tonight at B&N that Osprey has a marvelous monograph on the above, to include various kinds of defensive positions for ATRs, ATGs, log bunkers for the Maxim and similar, mortar positions, etc. Images from the field manuals of the period are prominent and are beautifully complemented by gorgeous renderings of the defensive structures (cutaways) and their integration into the larger positions. You scenario designers will be thrilled to see a detailed rendering for a typical infantry company strongpoint. Perfect for a CM sized battle! Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Der Alte Fritz Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 Hi John It was published last year here in the UK. It has excellent detail on all the individual positions and a lot of back ground material as well. The section and platoon positions are well represented but company position diagram is flawed. It does not show the layout clearly and the scale is wrong. Nor does it show how it integrated into the battalion defensive region. So you really have to rely on the Glantz Kursk article to fill in the company level and above. A shame really as if the book had linked the platoon level info with the Glantz battalion level info it would have been a stunning addition to anyones library. As it is you have to infur a great deal in that middle ground. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted July 29, 2008 Author Share Posted July 29, 2008 Der Alte Fritz, Appreciate the clarifying remarks! Didn't have time to do more than glance at it (so many books vying for my attention!). Since you clearly seem to know your stuff, what's your take on the typical Russian strongpoint diagram in Caidin's THE TIGERS ARE BURNING? Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Der Alte Fritz Posted July 29, 2008 Share Posted July 29, 2008 HI John Do not know it so could not comment. The Glantz information is fairly comprehensive, the best diagram being here: http://www-cgsc.army.mil/carl/resources/csi/glantz2/images%5Cpg18.GIF The original is here at the RKKA site: http://www.armchairgeneral.com/rkkaww2/maps/1943SW/Kursk/151RR_8RD_fortifications_tactik_55_Kursk_June29_43.jpg It clearly shows a complete Rifle Regiment, with individual battalions and companies visible. With a bit of imagination you can see the individual platoon positions within the company strong points. Ignore the long trenches between companies, the men were concentrated in the company strong points. Note that two companies in the middle are cheek by jowl. You can also see an AT strong point with four guns at the top of the diagram. Note the guns cover the flanks of the position not straight ahead. Two guns cover the right flank and the other two the entrance into the 2nd Bn area. This area is swept by fire from the other company strong point in the middle by three guns. All guns are 45mm. There are two large battery positions for mobile 76mm batteries to move into at the back of the position covering an attack from the left and there is a minefield to cover this area as well. So linking this info with the info in the book should give you a pretty clear idea of how it worked. The only item I am missing is a diagram of an AT Region which Glantz describes as 2-6 AT strong points in an area. These tended to be deeper into the defensive belt and in open country. cheers DAF 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted July 30, 2008 Share Posted July 30, 2008 deleted per user request 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Der Alte Fritz Posted July 30, 2008 Share Posted July 30, 2008 Quite right but this often obscures the method the trench digger is trying to adopt. Look here for actual defensive positions and their corresponding schematic, firstly the 375th RD at Kursk http://www.armchairgeneral.com/rkkaww2/maps/1943SW/Kursk/375RD_Kursk_July_43.JPG http://www.armchairgeneral.com/rkkaww2/maps/1943SW/Kursk/375RD_ATscheme_tactik_67_Kursk_Jul43.jpg and then on the other side of Belgorod the 81st GRD: http://www.armchairgeneral.com/rkkaww2/maps/1943SW/Kursk/81GRD_Kursk_July_5_43.jpg http://www-cgsc.army.mil/carl/resources/csi/glantz2/images%5Cpg14.GIF cheers 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 deleted per user request 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bannon DC Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 FYI -- Osprey is working on a book for the Stalin and Molitov defensive lines... release date Sept. 2008. http://www.ospreypublishing.com/store/The-Stalin-and-Molotov-Lines-_9781846031922/ The book John K may have been referring to is Soviet Field Fortifications, 1941-45. A good book with many interesting illustrations. Similar to the German counterpart. http://www.ospreypublishing.com/store/The-Stalin-and-Molotov-Lines-_9781846031922/ 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted July 31, 2008 Author Share Posted July 31, 2008 Bannon DC, Am pretty sure you're right, but I'm certain the second link is wrong, having checked it! Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Der Alte Fritz Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 Originally Posted by Der Alte Fritz View Post the method the trench digger is trying to adopt The way to look at it, is to envisage what really happens on the ground. An engineer officer, complete with map, surveys the area and tells the regimental commander, "Ivanov - place your first line on that ridge and your second in the valley. Make sure you lay a minefield in the flat area in front of the hill and put a pill box covering that ravine." Then he gets into his jeep and speeds off. The Regimental commander gathers his battalion commanders and company commanders and they walk the ground. "1st battalion on the right, link up with the 203rd, 2nd battalion on the left link up with the 431st. A company in those trees there, B and C company joint strong point on that rise......." The company commander wanders off to tell his platoon commanders -"standard formation, HQ over there, platoons along the line of the ridge 60m apart." The sergant shouts at the platoon members, " Bessanov, Romanov, get that LMG over here, dig in here. Right you 'orrible lot dig in foxholes either side 6m apart. When you have done that, join them all up and keep digging." Which basically illustrates how armies tend to have a set routine in digging defences at battalion level and below (or in the Russian service probably regimental level). The fancy engineering stuff is done separately by higher level formations or in special terrain or circumstances, special orders go out. So the Russian Army in WW2 had a standard way of digging in and did this day after day during the war. They just applied it to the terrain in front of them. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bannon DC Posted August 1, 2008 Share Posted August 1, 2008 FYI -- Osprey is working on a book for the Stalin and Molitov defensive lines... release date Sept. 2008. http://www.ospreypublishing.com/store/The-Stalin-and-Molotov-Lines-_9781846031922/ The book John K may have been referring to is Soviet Field Fortifications, 1941-45. A good book with many interesting illustrations. Similar to the German counterpart. http://www.ospreypublishing.com/store/Soviet-Field-Fortifications-1941–45_9781846031168 Corrected the link for the second publication. (For some reason I could not edit the original) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted August 2, 2008 Share Posted August 2, 2008 deleted per user request 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Der Alte Fritz Posted August 2, 2008 Share Posted August 2, 2008 I think Kursk is a special case, as they had months in which to prepare these defences and the engineers had the luxury of being ale to go back time and time again to check the work and to ask for further special work to be carried out. It is probably due to this fact that we have the maps at all as they thought that it was worth keeping for the historic record. Also note that the scale is very large, the 375th RD frontage was about 8km long ang so that map occers quite an area. So it is highly unlikely that is shows all the trenches, just the main ones with the important switch positions. I did copy a section of that map onto a CMBB map and it is pretty bare, no doubt there were a lot more trenchs than those shown. cheers 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted August 8, 2008 Author Share Posted August 8, 2008 Der Alte Fritz, I just got Sharp's must read "Soviet Infantry Tactics of World War II," courtesy of the BFC Summer Sale. It has an extensive treatment of the art of tactical field fortification, based on the field regs by that guy Stalin! The illo quality's bad, but the info's pure gold, including manpower requirements per position type, company strongpoint diagram and much more. Also included is a helpful list of effective weapon ranges, siting guidance, etc. Sadly, Sharp dropped some sections on the mortar platoon, recon company, SMG company and a couple of other things. Even so, the thing's pure gold. BannonDC, The Suvorov thread has some terrific links in it on both the Stalin Line and Molotov Line fortifications. Juicy! Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Der Alte Fritz Posted August 8, 2008 Share Posted August 8, 2008 Here is one for John Kettler: http://www.allworldwars.com/German%20Field%20Fortifications%20on%20the%20Eastern%20Front.html Yes the Sharp book is excellent for late 42 and accords pretty well with Glantz's CSI article which shows the same company position diagram. cheers 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted August 8, 2008 Author Share Posted August 8, 2008 Der Alte Fritz, Bravo Zulu and bookmarked! As groggy as it gets and a windfall to scenario designers and modelers alike. Haven't seen anything that detailed since the marvelous 1970s Bellona book on German field fortifications, where I was introduced to the idea of a "parking garage" for a PaK 40, coupled with a ramp to roll it into battery once the shelling stopped. Main site's amazing! I have the Liska sketch book, and it's a treasured possession. Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Der Alte Fritz Posted August 13, 2008 Share Posted August 13, 2008 Hi John Just got the Osprey German Field Fortifications 1939-1945. What a disappointment! Covers the pre-war 'elastic defence' in some depth and then its application in the early war years, with theatre specific examples later in the book. Then it covers the 'strongpoint' defence used in the defence before Moscow in the Winter of '41. So far so good. It then covers the rest of the war in ONE PARAGRAPH. "Strongpoint defence remained into mid 1943/44 in some areas. After that the Germans were in steady retreat......" No mention of the defences used in the winter of 1942, very successfully in the North and with quite a lot of success in the Stalingrad area. Nothing about the Panther Wotan line defences in 1943 (the Western Front battered away at these from October to June without success and huge casualties!) Nothing about the move away from strong point to a linear defence in 1943 (as mentioned in US Intelligence reports - so not exactly difficult to find references: see http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/ttt/trench-warfare-eastern-front.html) and the various books and articles by Raus and others giving a number of variations on 'elastic defence'. So not a god buy as there is better information on the web. cheers 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted August 14, 2008 Author Share Posted August 14, 2008 Der Alte Fritz, Egad! Appreciate the heads up. Suggest you look for the aforementioned Bellona pub and/or TM E 30-450 Handbook on German Military Forces. Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeatEtr Posted August 14, 2008 Share Posted August 14, 2008 You guys need to get a life... (Yet another thread that has me off to buy even more books to add to a huge stack that would take 5 lifetimes to read through... you bastards! lol) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Der Alte Fritz Posted August 14, 2008 Share Posted August 14, 2008 That is where you are wrong. I do this to escape from real life! I have got 40 breakfasts to cook in a moment, 10 days work of accounts to do in 3 days before submitting to the Inland Revenue and oh a £1,000,000 debt. No I am much happier talking about digging holes in the ground 70 years ago! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted August 14, 2008 Author Share Posted August 14, 2008 Der Alte Fritz, 40 breakfasts? That would've strained even Mom, and she had a family of eight to contend with. Do your escapes perhaps also include models of Russian Napoleonic artillery en batterie and defending the candy store against young mitered blonds? If so, I found your blog while trying to get HarryInk up to speed on Russians for HW:LG. Now, your holes can go even farther back! Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Der Alte Fritz Posted August 14, 2008 Share Posted August 14, 2008 Hi John Great blog but not mine unfortunately! But I am a SYW enthusiast - funnily enough I recognised many of the people pictured on the site from tramping round Europe with Prof Chris Duffy from Sandhurst a few years ago. No, I run a small hotel and you can see us athttp://www.thestrandhouse.co.uk/facilities.php cheers 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tero Posted August 14, 2008 Share Posted August 14, 2008 Hi John Great blog but not mine unfortunately! But I am a SYW enthusiast - funnily enough I recognised many of the people pictured on the site from tramping round Europe with Prof Chris Duffy from Sandhurst a few years ago. No, I run a small hotel and you can see us athttp://www.thestrandhouse.co.uk/facilities.php cheers How is the drive to Folkestone and what kind of discounts do forumites get ? Any discounts to families of 6 ? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Der Alte Fritz Posted August 14, 2008 Share Posted August 14, 2008 Hi It takes 30 minutes to Ashford and about another 10 to Folkestone, so not too bad. Can do the ferry ports in an hour. Yes we can do you a bit of a deal, depends on the time of year and whether mid-week or weekend as to how much. Family of six could go into two rooms (triples) depending on the family dynamic of course. Mention the Eastern Front to Mary and she will probably send to money just to stay away! Mention that you play CMBB and she will defintely send you money!!! cheers 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeatEtr Posted August 14, 2008 Share Posted August 14, 2008 I don't want to seem shallow, but then again I am so therefore this will. Those two girls up front in that picture are smokin hot. Are they spoken for? If not I'd like to make my reservation now please. Seriously though, my dad and his girlfriend are bed & breakfast fanatics. I'm gonna pass this site onto him. He's retiring soon and has already mentioned taking a European trip. Where exactly is this place at? I see it says it's in East Sussex and near Rye and Winchelsea, where ever those places are. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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