Freeboy Posted May 15, 2007 Share Posted May 15, 2007 OK, So it is not industructable BUT, This bad boy, I was the Red army player in the Kursk battle and this tank first through a tread, then the back of the turret was blown off, Then after multiple hits asummably by HE rounds as my ap rounds ran out it stayed "afloat" ! I did not know these tanks could lose "part" of a turret? Is this historically correct, it was pretty cool to watch as I saw about 15 hits! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vergeltung Posted May 15, 2007 Share Posted May 15, 2007 they were great tanks for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Von Omar Posted May 16, 2007 Share Posted May 16, 2007 The back of the turret is actually just a common add-on. It was for storage only and wasn't part of the armored turret facing. You're right though, it is pretty cool to watch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freeboy Posted May 16, 2007 Author Share Posted May 16, 2007 ok, did it carry amo? this bad bod lost a track, the back of the turret and kept it up!, it also was able to pivot the hull, at least initially with one tread? I know I cannot do that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisND Posted May 16, 2007 Share Posted May 16, 2007 Originally posted by Freeboy: ok, did it carry amo? this bad bod lost a track, the back of the turret and kept it up!, it also was able to pivot the hull, at least initially with one tread? I know I cannot do that! Maybe if the crew was suicidal it would carry ammo . Probably tools, personal effects, etc. We have similar structures on modern tanks as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tofke Posted May 16, 2007 Share Posted May 16, 2007 here some photos of TIGER interiors: http://www.panzerworld.net/tigeriifortknox.html and here the last surviving tigers (pdf format). http://the.shadock.free.fr/Surviving_Tigers.pdf Have a nice day Tofke Beer Killer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted May 16, 2007 Share Posted May 16, 2007 Freeboy, The part you blew off the turret made the Tiger crew unhappy. Why? You just cost those men most of their personal possessions: bedrolls, clothing, Hans's guitar, Ulrich's accordion, rations, etc. That big storage bin isn't armored, either. Regards, John Kettler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freeboy Posted May 16, 2007 Author Share Posted May 16, 2007 ok, next example, Kurk again, this darn tank , last G tank,and diassabled, kills my t34s, then all my infantry get to it but those stupid frag grenades do nothing, U wold think they would add Molotovs here! or; "piss in the vent and demoralize the enemy " command Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnasher Posted May 16, 2007 Share Posted May 16, 2007 Tigers are only bad boys at long range My guys took out 2 Tiger Is & 3 KTs last night. One of the KTs was killed using AT grenades looted from their comrades. Here's a screenie I took, I lost 3 TDs in the process though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freeboy Posted May 16, 2007 Author Share Posted May 16, 2007 I have seen it all, tigers that wet there beds at night and indistructable crew tigers! Playing both for and against German... It sure is nice when you have red army troops with anti tank grenades, Seems pretty easy to kill the elefants as they are a td without a turret, at least in this battle catching them in a crossfire. For those who like the ai, darn thing snuck a tiger behind my lines! I was all; "where did he come from, " that one at least was killed off quickly, seems there is always one bad apple, hehe Loving this game! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColonelBlimp Posted May 17, 2007 Share Posted May 17, 2007 Playing "Road of Death" mission (can't remember it's proper name) I had 7 Cromwells take on an unsupported Tiger at around 140 meters. All my Cromwells let off shots at the Tiger, nothing. 1 shot at one of my Cromwells, result, a flaming wreck. Repeat 7 times until all that is left is a future Wittmann laughing at my inadequacy. It wasn't even like Villers-Bocage or anything, all my tanks were in good cover, and with clear shots at the Tiger. It must have taken about 25 hits and all that happened was that it threw a track. Nothing else. Contrast this with Wittmann himself being killed in the same situation except being faced by 4 Shermans and no losses for the Canucks. After about 25 75mm shots, I doubt even a Tiger 2 would be tough enough to withstand that amount of punishment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vergeltung Posted May 17, 2007 Share Posted May 17, 2007 Originally posted by Tofke: and here the last surviving tigers (pdf format). http://the.shadock.free.fr/Surviving_Tigers.pdf nice link! someone should buy all the ones from the soviet museums, and re-paint them properly. jeebus, they look like little anatoly got to paint them with some spray paint and crayons from school. :eek: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tools4fools Posted May 17, 2007 Share Posted May 17, 2007 After about 25 75mm shots, I doubt even a Tiger 2 would be tough enough to withstand that amount of punishment. Why not? Did real life Tiger I & II have health bars? **** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freeboy Posted May 17, 2007 Author Share Posted May 17, 2007 PArt of the issue is by this time in the scenario all my tanks are gone or down to only He rounds, I did whatch two direct hits with anti tank grenads do nothing, one next to a tread and one one the top of the hull, aft! It is like the "mystery bug" before where one BT 7 took 25-40 hits and would not die.. saved game and killed it off! Some strange tea you got me drinking here ! Bravo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nikki Mond Posted May 17, 2007 Share Posted May 17, 2007 Originally posted by tools4fools: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> After about 25 75mm shots, I doubt even a Tiger 2 would be tough enough to withstand that amount of punishment. Why not? Did real life Tiger I & II have health bars? **** </font> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mannheim Tanker Posted May 17, 2007 Share Posted May 17, 2007 Originally posted by Normal Dude: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Freeboy: ok, did it carry amo? this bad bod lost a track, the back of the turret and kept it up!, it also was able to pivot the hull, at least initially with one tread? I know I cannot do that! Maybe if the crew was suicidal it would carry ammo . Probably tools, personal effects, etc. We have similar structures on modern tanks as well. </font> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColonelBlimp Posted May 18, 2007 Share Posted May 18, 2007 Why not? Did real life Tiger I & II have health bars? I heard that if the shot makes contact with the armour plate (not being deflected), and if the shot doesn't penetrate the armour plate it will cause cumulative damage through spalling, fracturing to the armour plate, rivets popping etc. If the shot partially penetrates, or causes a dent, every shot will weaken the armour plate itself through causing fractures etc. When I was playing this mission, the Tiger was virtually unharmed after over 25 shots (deflections and misses not included). No matter how Wittmannish the crew is, after 25 very close range 75mm non-deflected shots, pretty much any WWII tank would not be a nice place to be in! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jippo Posted May 18, 2007 Share Posted May 18, 2007 Good old Tigerfibel: 227 AT-rifle hits 14 52mm AT gun hits 11 76,2mm AT gun hits drove over 3 AT mines Travelled 60km on it's own power to service. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tools4fools Posted May 18, 2007 Share Posted May 18, 2007 it will cause cumulative damage through spalling, fracturing to the armour plate, rivets popping etc. That CAN happen but does not have to. A shot can crack armor plate if it's brittle armor indeed. Tigers was not brittle, among best of WWII. Did you ever see that pic of 17prd that got stuck in Tiger frontal armour? No cracking either despites almost penetrated. Tiger is welded, not rivets. Not every non-penetrating hit does cause automatically spalling either. Cumulative damage? Automatically? Doubt that. It isn't as simple like 'after 12 75mm hits armour plate has enough cumulative damage and round no 13 will penetrate' or 'after 51,5 40mm hits armour plate has enough cumulative damage and round no 52 will penetrate' IF you hit plate repeatedly in quick succession at same spot then maybe yes (depending on the gun youuse; a 0,50 caliber won't do...). That's maybe what vulcan does, yes. But did you hit that tank in quick succession on the very same spot? If your 'cumulative damage' model would be valid, why would the Germans have had problems with the T-34 then using their 37mm Pak? Just take 3 of them and with theri good ROF knock out those peksy T-34's. Obviously didn't work... How about the KV-I? **** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freeboy Posted May 18, 2007 Author Share Posted May 18, 2007 ok, my solution, CHEAT, I finally won this scenario that spawned this thread by adding some 34-85 and two is-2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lethaface Posted May 18, 2007 Share Posted May 18, 2007 Actually I won this scenario 3rd time after having a little thought... First two times just tried to go head on... But I decided to do what they did originally, try to flank them from behind... So, I rushed my tanks forward in line position. All but one crommwell were taken out, but that last one hit it good. Direct kill I think it also took out them other 2 tigers from back, or it was with help of reinforcements... Anyway; Check out Wittman's story, at viller-bocage he destroyed quite a number of tanks (40 something i think) b4 his own tiger was destroyed... He came out and escaped, only to be shot another day from behind by an english men... And die... Why u think the allies had this tiger fobia if they could take it out with a few shots? Actually, most Tigers (I & II's) were destroyed by Air & a lack of fuel/ammo; only a minority by allied tanks... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freeboy Posted May 19, 2007 Author Share Posted May 19, 2007 ok, we are talking about two different scens on two different fronts! I am in Kursk, next add on will be Tiger 2's to even up things Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted May 19, 2007 Share Posted May 19, 2007 Speaking as someone who owns an analysis of A-10s firing on a fully combat loaded simulated Soviet tank company (M-47 Pattons), I can assure you that the GAU-8 doesn't hit the same spot repeatedly, at least not from a shallow dive at open fire ranges of ~2000 feet and cease fire ranges of ~1400 feet before dive pull out. In fact, the combination of flight oscillations, meteorological variables, normal system dispersion and unique round to round dispersion result in a pattern more nearly resembling that of a shotgun than of one precisely targeted round after another, each hitting the same spot. Regards, John Kettler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColonelBlimp Posted May 19, 2007 Share Posted May 19, 2007 I understand that the Tiger was a very well made and very heavily armoured tank. It took a hell of a lot of beating but it was not indestructible. What I was really saying was that, after over 25 75mm Cromwell shots at very close range, I would have thought that something more serious would have happened to the tank than it losing a track. This wasn't someone in a Panzer II sitting in front of a Tiger 2 and hoping to God that something would happen. The penetration values for the ROQF 75mm square-on at around 100m are about 90-95mm-only about 5-10mm off the frontal armour of the Tiger. I'm not a tank expert by any means, but I would have thought over 25 of these shots hitting non-sloping armour would cause some kind of cumulative damage (although I do agree that with a tank as hard as the Tiger not every shot would cause damage), or cause the crew to bail. The main thing I can remember that would corroborate this is the Tiger I saw at Bovington captured on 21 April 1943 that was attacked by Churchills. Due to the fire superiority (I think, although my memory is wonky) a lucky shot locked up the turret and caused the crew to bail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nonickch Posted May 19, 2007 Share Posted May 19, 2007 I'm quite certain that in the sub 100m ranges AP rounds have an insane chance of shattering. I've fought quite a few toe to toe battles with panzers in villages, and I distinctly remember 4-5 T34's shooting a pz3 from 10-50 mt's and an that monster-tank from like 5 meters. Nothing happened. I was shooting it from all the possible angles, very few ricochet's and no damage. After like 3 minutes of non-stop shooting I had the tank that was shooting from behind to take some range and the pz3 went pop on the first round. On the good side, you can probably sucker-punch lone tigers by having a fast tank hug them, then circle around in a heavy hitter. So never expect to reach the penentration you get listed on 100m. EDIT: meh, I think tigers carry HEAT so you'll go pop very, very fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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