user73 Posted April 20, 2007 Share Posted April 20, 2007 I`ve got some questions on the gameplay: I´m playing an veteran level. Things I saw or noticed on the first german mission... 1. Why are the AT-guns fireing with such an accuracy even if they have no line of sight to my advancing tanks (PzKw II, IV)? They were killed nearly instantly by the guns and they do not even shoot back because it says "no clear line of sight ? Have they X-ray sights or is the KI cheating?(I think it´s the second...) 2. What use has the infantry ? They were killed on a far, far distance (bad to guess but I would say at about more than 800m, depolyment point to first trench) even if they go prone ? Ok, in the rifle fireranges is writen 2000m range but has anyone of you ever fired a rifle and tried to hit something? 250m to 400m would be realistic but 2000m ??? With a MG it would be possible to hit something at about 2000 but a rifle, don´t guess so or do they all have sniper abilitys and scopes? 3. Why can´t the infantry reload there weapons while prone ? I saw my machinegunner always goes up to kneeling saying "hello!!" and got shoot ... very anoying...(because it´s very hard work to get him into range, line of sight and all this without getting shoot...)Don´t remember if the other infantry also goes up and give a nice target but I guess so, the thing with the wrong animation was posted I think? (they seem to be all lefties and even if they don´t have a rifle they try to span it, seen on an Unteroffizier with his P38 I think) 4. Why are the tanks or crews so stupid that they can´t follow an order ? I tell them to hold position, I move to another hotspot, go back to the tanks and what are they doing ? Right, moving into some stupid position to get killed isn´t the button not working all the time or whats going on ? (Is there a hidden button too shoot some of them because of the refusal to obey my orders ? Perhaps the rest would learn ...) 5. Someone else allready posted it but why are there no waypoint chains, in reality I would tell my tankcommander: move straight 100m then turn left to the trees and hold fire until enemy comes in range... here it´s click click hmm, **** it doesn´t move, hmmm click ahh it´s moving again ... BANG!! (tank is hit indirect by antitank gun at hmm 2500m and destroyed :eek: ) urghs ... 6. The trees, its nice to see the tanks move down trees but is it nessecary to move down ervery tree they find ? I think every real tankdriver would think twice before ramming an tree (becouse of dammage to the trees or the own head if the commander takes his pistol and shoots him right into the same because he is driving so stupid Same things for the truckdrivers, if you think this is real, please take your car and try to move down the next tree you find ... no not the 50cm high one form you neighbor That´s all for now, besides this nice game, oh, nearly forget to mention: the sound is a little bit too unspectacular. Hope some things were adressed to fixed in an patch or something... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RavenouZ Posted April 20, 2007 Share Posted April 20, 2007 In the demo i noticed that the orders hold fire/ground are reseted after you move so you have to set thoose 2 buttons again, VERY anoying that the settings dont "sticky" but i think that it will be fixed. And i agree that INF are only cannonfodder, but maybe it is my lack of skills that make the INF useless. If the full game has all the little bugs that are present in the demo i hope that there will be some patch to correct it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaxisAxis Posted April 20, 2007 Share Posted April 20, 2007 You mention that the "crew is stupid" and a bunch of other important things which you think are lacking in this game and right in the end say its a nice game besides?? I don't know I haven't had a chance to play it enough but sounds like some people need to learn how to play it a little better and understand how it all works in regards to control interface options and line of sight-and we are all experts its seems on rang and realism. give me a break only a few have any idea what resembles real firing ranges and armer and damage for each of these weapons. Having a lot of knowledge about the artillery of world war II by reading about it and researching is one thing and somewhat admirable in itself- if of course you have good sources and aren't simple talking out you butt; But some of you come off as if you were there during world war II to design all equipment and armer that was used for every country that was fighting. So we feel we can pick at ever detail and know for sure we are percisely correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirHurl Posted April 20, 2007 Share Posted April 20, 2007 Inf is not useless against tanks. I often use anti-tank nades against the steel beasts. keep the head down an move near the tank. Use your nade and hope, the nade hit the tank. If you dont have any grenade in your backpack: search the dead bodys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
user73 Posted April 20, 2007 Author Share Posted April 20, 2007 @FaxisAxis: I´ve served in army and fired a rifle (G3, G36), machinegun( MG3, on bipod and tripod), Panzerfaust (Panzerfaust3, drove a truck and drove something like a tank(TPz Fuchs). I would say I have no idea of what the effective fighting range for the KAR98K( or the polish rifle) was but I don´t think it was better than the G3 wich is around 500m. Am I qualified to post my thoughts on realism ? Or do I need to study in history on WWII first ? Yes you are right we have to learn how things work in this game, no matter if an AT-gun fires indirect on my tanks ( position behind a little hill and moving ) and hits with every shoot its a little hmmm... And yes, beside all the lacking things in my opinion it´s still a nice game, whats the problem in this ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elmar Bijlsma Posted April 20, 2007 Share Posted April 20, 2007 Oops! [ April 20, 2007, 04:55 AM: Message edited by: Elmar Bijlsma ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elmar Bijlsma Posted April 20, 2007 Share Posted April 20, 2007 Originally posted by user73: I`ve got some questions on the gameplay: I´m playing an veteran level. Things I saw or noticed on the first german mission... 1. Why are the AT-guns fireing with such an accuracy even if they have no line of sight to my advancing tanks (PzKw II, IV)? They were killed nearly instantly by the guns and they do not even shoot back because it says "no clear line of sight ? Have they X-ray sights or is the KI cheating?(I think it´s the second...)Could be all sorts of things. You may be mistaken about that LOS, or the gunners may have better spotting (scouting) skill. If the target was obscured by trees you were damn unlucky to be hit. Penalties for shooting through foliage are pretty severe. Without knowing exactly what went on I couldn't possibly say for sure what's going on. I recommend you keep playing till you get a bit more familiar 2. What use has the infantry ? They were killed on a far, far distance (bad to guess but I would say at about more than 800m, depolyment point to first trench) even if they go prone ? Ok, in the rifle fireranges is writen 2000m range but has anyone of you ever fired a rifle and tried to hit something? 250m to 400m would be realistic but 2000m ??? With a MG it would be possible to hit something at about 2000 but a rifle, don´t guess so or do they all have sniper abilitys and scopes?Firstly, you can tell how far something is by selecting the unit concerned and if you move the mouse across the battlefield then in the unit screen (slightly left of middle) you'll see a distance counter. That's the distance between your selected unit and your cursor. I find infantry to be relatively save from rifle fire roughly 500m away or further. Of course, there's never a guarantee, bad luck or a skilled enemy and your men will be toast. As such I fear you may have gotten unlucky or misjudged the situation. 3. Why can´t the infantry reload there weapons while prone ? I saw my machinegunner always goes up to kneeling saying "hello!!" and got shoot ... very anoying...(because it´s very hard work to get him into range, line of sight and all this without getting shoot...)Don´t remember if the other infantry also goes up and give a nice target but I guess so, the thing with the wrong animation was posted I think? (they seem to be all lefties and even if they don´t have a rifle they try to span it, seen on an Unteroffizier with his P38 I think) Yeah, the leftie thing... Don't know what to say about that. The animation with the Garand and SVT is bad, I agree. What's worse, the guns aren't fired like semi-automatic rifles. Rapid fire and such. Never seen a problem with a P38, though I guess that may be because I never used them, the AI using it tended to get 'interrupted' before using it against me. 4. Why are the tanks or crews so stupid that they can´t follow an order ? I tell them to hold position, I move to another hotspot, go back to the tanks and what are they doing ? Right, moving into some stupid position to get killed isn´t the button not working all the time or whats going on ? (Is there a hidden button too shoot some of them because of the refusal to obey my orders ? Perhaps the rest would learn ...)THat's a puzzler, because you aren't the only one. However, if I ordering them to stay put, they stay put. You need to re-issue the stay put order after each desired movement is completed. Sadly, it's not a 'sticky' action. 5. Someone else allready posted it but why are there no waypoint chains, in reality I would tell my tankcommander: move straight 100m then turn left to the trees and hold fire until enemy comes in range... here it´s click click hmm, **** it doesn´t move, hmmm click ahh it´s moving again ... BANG!! (tank is hit indirect by antitank gun at hmm 2500m and destroyed :eek: ) urghs ... No argument from me, waypoints would be nice. I can manage without them but that's just because I'm always trying to stay on top of everything going on on the field. 6. The trees, its nice to see the tanks move down trees but is it nessecary to move down ervery tree they find ? I think every real tankdriver would think twice before ramming an tree (becouse of dammage to the trees or the own head if the commander takes his pistol and shoots him right into the same because he is driving so stupid Same things for the truckdrivers, if you think this is real, please take your car and try to move down the next tree you find ... no not the 50cm high one form you neighbor On one level I agree with you, driving over trees isn't really the thing to do for a tank. When a Kubelwagen does it, it's even worse. However, and it's a big however. My vehicles hardly ever drive through trees. If your vehicles do, it may be because some fool keeps ordering them to do so. That´s all for now, besides this nice game, oh, nearly forget to mention: the sound is a little bit too unspectacular. Hope some things were adressed to fixed in an patch or something... I'm happy with most sounds, but it's become clear that many people aren't. I guess I'm easily pleased/deaf. Obviously, with so many people commenting on the sound, it will get looked at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazylegsmurphy Posted April 20, 2007 Share Posted April 20, 2007 On one level I agree with you, driving over trees isn't really the thing to do for a tank. When a Kubelwagen does it, it's even worse. However, and it's a big however. My vehicles hardly ever drive through trees. If your vehicles do, it may be because some fool keeps ordering them to do so. [Wink] Don't listen to him Joe! I complained about this when my trucks in the Demo plowed down all the trees to make room for Twin Pines Mall. It's not my fault the units have no ability to think for themselves. I'm not even getting paid for that babysitting gig. I said it once and I'll say it again. You can't just pick and choose AI. There has to be some form of consistency. You can't say, "The units will stand up, lay down, and twirl in circles, regardless of that you want" and "They will fire on anything they see, unless you tell them to hold fire" And then turn around and say, "If you're not making good orders, it's your fault!" You can't just throw AI consistency out the window when it doesn't suit the situation. You can't just call someone stupid for assuming your tanks will at least think somewhat like the rest of your troops. Plain and simple, the pathfinding isn't up to snuff. Someone is trying to play it off as player error, instead of programming errors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
user73 Posted April 20, 2007 Author Share Posted April 20, 2007 @Elmar : ok, tested the thing with the range meter, and the range when my inf. were killed was allways und 400m ok, an explaination why they were so easy killed. Allthou it woulb be nice to get knowlege on how skilled the polish soldiers are. The other things with the machinegunner who comes up to reload, Antitankguns wich fires trough bushes and trees with nearly 100% accuracy (is it possible that if the enemy has a scout, a lonely polish tankdriver walks throu the bushes, is the reason for the accurate shoots ?)hmm, still don´t know why... @ SirHurl :Tried also the thing with the grenades, on the trenches not the tanks, works nice. But thanks for your tipps... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted April 20, 2007 Share Posted April 20, 2007 400m is close to point blank range for the heavier weapons and tanks. For heavy machineguns it's within lethal range. Although of course that doesn't guarantee a hit. In fact somebody else complained about accuracy of the AT guns in the demo? It's a fact - your own guns always shoot less accurate than the enemy This is always a good indication that the hitting routines are balanced. Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
user73 Posted April 20, 2007 Author Share Posted April 20, 2007 Originally posted by Moon: ... It's a fact - your own guns always shoot less accurate than the enemy This is always a good indication that the hitting routines are balanced. Martin Aha, so you mean you programmed the AI to cheat, this explains how they can look throu bushes, trees and even hills and place a nearly 100% accourate hit,nice to know ... where can this been solved or is it hardcoded ? I don´t like it if the AI is cheating (don´t even like if anyone is cheating :mad: ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elmar Bijlsma Posted April 20, 2007 Share Posted April 20, 2007 AS for ATGs seeing through trees, check my posts in this thread for some detail as to what might be going on. There is the strong possibility that the ATGs have strong Scouting Skill, allowing them to hide better and spot better. A tank moving about isn't good at spotting anyway, and with a low scout skill he will spot even worse. That may why he might be invisible to you but you not to him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted April 20, 2007 Share Posted April 20, 2007 Dude, no. I am talking about the perception players ALWAYS have. It always seems like the other guy is shooting more accurately. Same in two player games. It's psychology. Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
user73 Posted April 20, 2007 Author Share Posted April 20, 2007 AH, "It's psychology" ok, accepted, the games works fine, no one cheats and I was false on my opinon and views (seems I need new glasses or something), oh and thanks for the money moon, btw ...(hope you like sarcasm ) [ April 20, 2007, 06:06 AM: Message edited by: user73 ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BadKarma Posted April 20, 2007 Share Posted April 20, 2007 Originally posted by user73: 2. What use has the infantry ? They were killed on a far, far distance Had the same problem too, then i ordered the whole advance in prone and i had almost no infantry losses . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeLaVega Posted April 20, 2007 Share Posted April 20, 2007 I think this game is about tanks. Therefore I "sell" all infantry except the locked ones and use tanks. The locked ones I park at the end of the map. One guy of them volunteers as a scout. He will prone to the front, checks everything. The tanks will do the rest. With gunner points at 100 they can shoot the AT gun crews right between the eyes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
user73 Posted April 20, 2007 Author Share Posted April 20, 2007 Surely a tactic thats works DeLaVega and my problems with the infantry are nearly solved the problems consisted of a few things, I´ll try to resume : 1) It´s only psychology, means I have the illusion that the AI is cheating. Maybe possible can´t say, don´t know how the AI was programmed so everything is possible ... 2) I´m just a whiner that has no idea of WWII warfare, yeap, I was never in WWII, thank god! I´m too young, but I servered in the german army and was partly trained after infantry tactics of WWII (Panzervernichtungstrupp, etc) and fired my gun and so on. So hmm, maybe my hopes were just too high, maybe ... 3)and last I think this is the soloution the infantry partly acts as stupid as the truckdriver whh tries to drive down a tree... watch them when they reload !!! they go up and thats the time when they got shoot !!! The regular rifleman does it, the machinegunner and the officer. Nobody would ever try to put his head out off the "cover" just to reload or am I false ? It´s just suicide .... Lost a platton while watching them fireing at the first trench, covered in a field, everytime they get up to reload - bang- wounded - reload- bang ser. wounded- reload- bang - dead :confused: So I think this is one reason why the infantry is not very useable, the other is ther acting without or against orders. :mad: (this emoticon belongs to the against orders ...) So all I ask is please look into these issues and perhaps make them right... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeLaVega Posted April 20, 2007 Share Posted April 20, 2007 user73: 1)Sometimes, when an AI AT gun hits directly I also think that the AI is cheating. Then I quickload the savegame and play this situation again and then my tank hits the AT gun with one shot. Then the AI quickloads again ... 2)You shouldn`t cry in front of your troops. Be a good example as a Panzervernichter. 3)A few hours ago I told you I would use tanks. Hm. In the meantime I faced a mission in which you only have PzIIf which one can hardly call a tank. Ok, long story short. At the end they had neither the ammo nor the power to destroy the russian T-60. So even I had to use the infantry. Only in manning the russian AT guns I could win this mission, yet 60 men of the 80 went to better places. Even with quickloading 9 times per minute I couldn`t save them. The AAR said: 44 minutes. But I think it was more than 3 hours I used. Still, couldn`t save the 60. I haven`t met this gun-reloading problem yet, you mentioned. Maybe, because I`m too busy checking if my tanks are still alive. Ah, I almost forgot: Just now I play the Citadel mission. Tigers against T-34 V.1.0, nothing special. But most of the T-34 just swallow the 8,8 cm shell. Sometimes they need to be hit 4-5 times to get knocked out. Hm, cheating? But the non-whiners here would say: Of course, if the T-34 gets too close the relative low velocity of the 8,8 cannot penetrate and this is how they attacked the Tiger for. But, they don`t even have one scratch and the textures aren`t showing any damage. As if the T-34 just opens one hatch and ... Shhhhhhhhhwwwwwwwwwwuuuuuuuuuuupppppp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
user73 Posted April 20, 2007 Author Share Posted April 20, 2007 HrHr .. nice just watch your infantry prone and fireing, once there ammo is emtpy the will go up to kneeling position reload watch the very nice landscape (I mean it ) and get shoot or if lucky get prone again ... thrust me ... and this is anoying because nobody with only a miligramm of brain would take his head up in a real dangarous situation ... or am I false perhaps they like to die in the "heldentod" ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeLaVega Posted April 20, 2007 Share Posted April 20, 2007 Hm, most times I let them prone just to hide them around where I placed them. If I really need to fight with them, I clear as much trenches as I can with my tanks and then let them assault with the "storm" order. So, they won`t even have time to reload. Heldentod included, of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeLaVega Posted April 20, 2007 Share Posted April 20, 2007 user73 if you are online we could meet in a multiplayer game. I`m listed in the lobby until 13:40. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freeboy Posted April 20, 2007 Share Posted April 20, 2007 ok, Maybe on thehardest mode the ai get uber spotting and gunning, at dunkirk, with ,ultiple tanks attaking one gun, my tanks lose! so, how do we either A. skip to the next battle? B. mod the troops? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swissdragon Posted April 20, 2007 Share Posted April 20, 2007 Hi there user73: I totaly agree with you. I've made over and over the same observations as you did. The Developer really should consider this points to be serious BUGS and correct it ASAP. Its this BUGS why I call TOW inferior, compared to the CM Series. This BUGS are really spoiling the "realism"-factor of the game. And YES, I still like the game very much - as you do. We are big Battlefront fans and we love to play their games! And I'm sure they will deal with the complaints made by their customers. They always did in the past. And their patches always have enhanced the gameplay and rootet out BUGS. I just hope the patch comes soon, because this game has a huge potential IMHO. (...just for the "psychologist" in this forum I was serving as Panzergrenadier in the Swiss Mechanized Forces and served also as soldier in the French Foreign Legion, so I have an idea about tanks and infantry engagments, so don't waste your breath in telling me that the points observed from user73 and me and many others are no facts ..thanks!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JG53_Jaguar Posted April 20, 2007 Share Posted April 20, 2007 Originally posted by DeLaVega: I think this game is about tanks. Therefore I "sell" all infantry except the locked ones and use tanks. The locked ones I park at the end of the map. One guy of them volunteers as a scout. He will prone to the front, checks everything. The tanks will do the rest. With gunner points at 100 they can shoot the AT gun crews right between the eyes. Dude tell me, how did you make that one guy volunteer None of the SOB I have want to volunteer for anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JG53_Jaguar Posted April 20, 2007 Share Posted April 20, 2007 Originally posted by DeLaVega: Hm, most times I let them prone just to hide them around where I placed them. If I really need to fight with them, I clear as much trenches as I can with my tanks and then let them assault with the "storm" order. So, they won`t even have time to reload. Heldentod included, of course. I'm crying here laughing my head off Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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