Sigh...The forgotten Pacific Front.

[Mailer]

If they only would make a pacific front, then we would have the entire war.

We have the west, we have the east, and soon we have Africa.

But I can not feel complete until my men take Hernderson field at Guadalcanal.

Yes, it is true that I can enjoy the entire war with Talonsoft's excellent campaign series, but these games seem to have lost their lustre after Combat Mission.

Why can't it be?

I read an interview with the boys down at Battlefront at Wargamer.com. They said the Combat Mission engine just didn't suit the Pacific because of all the Naval action and Island hopping.

But I disagree.

See, at the Batallion, Division level that CM simulates, there were TONS of infantry/armor engagements. And you wouldn't really be doing "island hopping" at this scale any more than you would have to make sure Patton stayed supplied during Operation Cobra in Beyond Overlord.

I guess what I'm saying, is that on the tactical scale, things in the Pacific aren't all that different than things in Europe.

It's like this. The West Front has kind of become the Brittany Spears of Computer Wargamming. We have thousands of games that put us right on Omaha Beach--and it's all because of Tom Hanks and Saving Private Ryan.

Now don't get me wrong here, I love gaming on the West Front, but with so little coverage of the Pacific Front, I just wish my favorite WW2 Wargame of all time would cover it.

So don't think I'm harshing on Battlefront, because the boys can make a damn fine game, but let us not forget the sacrafices of our brothers who fought in the Pacific, where EVERY DAY was like landing on the Beeches of Normandy. I mean, how many beeches did the Marines storm in the south pacific? Yet I haven't once seen Tom Hanks wading to shore on one of these tropical hell holes.

Anyway, is there anyway we can talk you into it?

Mailer

[Louie the Toad]

As I look over the descriptions you list, the LESS I think it would be fun in the Pacific. Possible exception - Beach landings. But the rest of it, jungle fighting, limited use of Tanks and certainly few Tank vs Tank battles. Limited AFV types to play with, only one Axis army.

At the current level of CM this would just not be fun for me. The bigger picture with ships and aircraft would have to be in the play of the game, imbedded in a significant way, for me to be interested.

No rumble in the jungle..... Toad

[Mailer]

Not necessarily. Just like in the other CM games, the naval stuff, etc. questions are already resolved when the scenerio starts.

When you play a scenerio in beyond overlord, the air supperiority question has been resolved when the mission begins, and the availability of air support (or lack) is reflected in the scenerio.

Same with supply, CM doesn't model the big picture, or the strategic aspects. The CM game is zoomed in tight, that you really do not have to model naval engagements, etc. AT ALL.

CM is about you and your company or battallion of boys fighting on the ground, you don't have to factor in the naval war any more than you have to factor in the B-17 bombing campaign in europe.

Now, if you still don't like the Pacific because its just not your scene, well, I understand as these things can only be determined by personal preference, but I think you must agree that the theater is at least quite doable and doesn't require ANY modeling of aircraft carriers, battleships, etc.

Its like this--Guadalcanal--any scenerios that take place in Gaudalcanal AFTER the US won Naval Supperiority in the area might give US forces more Naval Barage Forward Observers. It might give US forces more Air Support during the combat phase. It would give Japanese forces NONE of these things. And that my friend, is how you model the island hopping of and naval engagements of the pacific in CM.

Check out this very same thread in the Barbarossa to Berlin Forum. A lot of people have put in their opinions there, and I think you will find some interested reading both for and against a CM version in the Pacific theater.

Thanks for your reply,

Mailer

[Mailer]

oh, and although someone said in another thread that Talonsoft's Rising Sun was missing something the other two titles had--I have to say that Rising Sun was a very compelling game.

The scenerios were very good, and well designed. There were some tense engagments in the Operation Shoestring Campaign. (Gaudalcanal)

Like the time the Japanese stormed my base at night. My boys had been making good progress at Guadalcanal, but during the night, Jap boats managed to land tons of infantry on the island, and they came in hard. It went like this--

A flare went up and machine gun fire started pouring out of the nearby jungle. "Banzai!" they cried out and they charged the paremeter.

My boys opened up with machine gun fire, but they couldn't see anything so they just fired at the muzzleflashes in darkness (yes, this is modeled in the game.)

I ordered a flare to be fired above the jungle, but it was a dud and my guys still couldnt see anything.

By then a wave of Japanese had crossed the field under cover of darkness and it was face to face fighting between them and my men.

They broke through my forward line and were charging through my encampments. By now I had some flares up in the air, so the night was lit up and there were japs and americans all intermixed, engaged in brutal close combat.

"BANZAI!" More charged through the break in my line and were running willy nilly into my encampment.

But by now my boys on the front line were pulling it together, and my reserve units were getting organized and really bringing fire to bear on the enemy.

More Flares went up. The Japanese were losing steam, their push into my ranks was devestating, but costly to them as well. I got some morters into postion and soon I them pinned.

The fighting reached a crescendo, and finally, the japs broke, they turned and fled back toward the jungle, taking heavy fire the whole way.

When the dust cleared, I was awarded a marginal victory. It was just another night on the Pacific front.

So, what I'm saying is that Pacific Front offered plenty of great gaming moments just like the other two in the series, and i think the same could be said of a combat mission venture into pacific territory.

Mailer

[Louie the Toad]

Mailer,

I think you missed my point. Without the Ship and Aircraft fighting the Pacific is of little interest to me... due to jungle fighting, few roads, limited maneuverability, blasting the enemy out of caves, few AFV types, lack of tank vs tank.. only 1 Axis army....not enough variables. Every battle will seem like the last and the next.

Ho Hum....... Toad

[Philippe]

I think the Pacific has a lot going for it if you look at it from a broader perspective (I still have soft spot in my heart for the Pacific Theater Steel Panthers scenarios). And whenever I think about WWII in Asia, I have trouble convincing myself that the war started as late as September of '39.

First, extend the conventional time-frame back a little bit and you have the early tank battles in Mongolia at Khalkin Gol. Lots of tanks. For comparison purposes you can fast forward a bit and watch the rematch in the Soviet invasion of Manchuria at the end of the war.

Second, there was an awful lot of fighting in China during the late thirties that continued on into the forties. So even if you want to leave out the Communists (and there's no reason why you should), there should be some interesting actions between the Japanese and the Nationalist Chinese, and some of these will involve light tanks.

Third, the Japanese "blitzkrieg" with light tanks and infiltrators in the Malay peninsula leading up to the fall of Singapore may not be popular with the Commonwealth crowd, but it makes for very interesting reading. And you can watch them tackle a different military system (U.S. and Philippine colonial) at about the same time by looking at the fighting in the Philippines leading up to the surrender in Bataan and the fall of Coregidor.

Finally, what treatment of the war in the Pacific theater could be complete without the fighting in Burma and on the border of India ? Imphal and Kohima are too important to ignore, and the fighting in that theater lets you bring in the oft-forgotten Indian National Army.

There's a lot of ground fighting without a beach in sight, one or two big tank battles, and a lot of different national armies besides the Japanese and the Americans. I think you could bring out a game with at least a score of very different types of scenarios, and none of them would have to be island jungle slogs.

Having said that, three of my uncles served on Guadacanal and one served in the Aleutians, so I have to think the Pacific was a very interesting place historically (even thought nobody in my family ever seemed to want to talk about it).

[JasonC]

It is also worth pointing out that actually, one island fight was not at all like the others. Many of them were open (Iwo) or lightly covered by palm (central Pacific atolls), while others were thick jungle (Solomons, Saipan, Pelieu). Sometimes the Japanese contested them by attacking, sometimes by defending at the water's edge, sometimes up in the hills, only sending occasionally shells lower down.

Sometimes the Americans had little fire support (Tarawa e.g.), sometimes massive amounts. Early on the Japanese sometimes had such support (e.g. the guys on Guad were bombarded by 14 inches one night). On Guad the Japanese had mostly just infantry, on Okinawa they had serious artillery.

Other's points about China, Singapore, Burma, and I'll add New Guinea are also on target. It was not a one style fight. What is true is it isn't an armor duel. If some armor grog thinks that is the whole point of CM or what it is about, I can see them not being too interested in the PTO.

[Mailer]

Louie,

Ah, I see. You're saying that your primary interest in the theater revolves around planes, naval, etc that isn't modeled in Combat Mission, and that personally, you're not much into the sort of terrain and engagments that occured on the ground and is modeled by the combat mission system.

In that case, Pacific Front may not be for you. I do think that there probably are a number of people who do like these engagments though, so hopfully they will reconsider.

Louie the Toad, have you ever played Gary Grigsby's Uncommon Valor? This game simulates the Naval Combat in the South Pacific and is REALLY good. If you haven't played it you should give it a try.

Thanks for all the responses. Mailer

[Los]

I am posting a few previews of MikeT's CMMOS Pacific Mod for CMBO, hopefully this'll hold you over....

Look under the files section:

Look under files for CMBO Pacific jpgs

[ November 04, 2003, 12:42 AM: Message edited by: Los ]