PC Upgrade questions

[iplaygames2]

Hi all, I'm here looking for a bit of help on upgrading my rig. Need to upgrade my CPU, GPU, mobo and RAM (and, unfortunately, my power supply).

I'm like most gamers, on a budget. Between my kid and my wife, I've been able to squeeze 6-800 USDollars for this upgrade. I've been eyeying the new Core2duo Intel processors.

So, I've found this so far:

GeForce 7900GS - $200

Core2duo E6400 - $222

Gigabyte GA-965P mobo - $119

Kingwin ABT 600w PS - $101

Now I need RAM recommendations.

This upgrade is for all games, but ToW is what really prompted me to do it. My current technology is 2+ years old, and didn't meet the minimum specs.

What do you think of the options so far, and can you suggest a good RAM? Is DDR2 really better than DDR? I've got 1GB of DDR400 in this box.

Thanks for any advice, and suggestions welcome.

[Reichenberg]

With this motherboard you have to use DDR2 - and nowadays I would go straight to 2GB (2x1024MB). On the Intel system DDR2-667 is the max that makes sense - as long as you are not oc-ing. Normally with the Intel FSB of 1066Mhz (quadpumped - actually they have only 266Mhz) DDR2-533 (with 266Mhz) would be perfect, but for some reason (that I do not know) the RAM faster than the FSB (DDR2-667 (333Mhz)) gives a bit more performance. There is no major difference in the price. The next faster DDR2-800 (400Mhz) is more expensive and does not bring any speed advantage - without oc-ing!!!

If you want to save some money then I would replace the 7900GS with a ATI1950PRO. At the moment this gives you the most bang for the bucks in this price range. But the old CM-series always had problems with ATI cards. I assume this is not the case with ToW any more. So decide if you want to play the old CM without any visual fog (ATI) or spend a bit more money (nvidia).

Your power supply seems quite a bit overpowered with 600W. Especially in a system that is not able to be upgraded to SLI or Crossfire.

I am in the same situation like you right now..... just waiting for the preorders of ToW to order a new PC to it. I will not go higher than 400W with a good power supply. This should be able to handle every non SLI or non Crossfire system.

When I am saying cheaper or more expensive I have €-prices in my mind - and I assume the price ratio is the same in $. Correct me if I am wrong.

Uwe

[iplaygames2]

Thanks Reich for the response. What do I need to change to make this rig SLI eligible? Is it the mobo? I have no intentions of going SLI anytime soon but would like to have the option available at some point in time.

[Drusus]

IMHO it is not wise to pay a lot of money just in case you might want to upgrade at some distant point in time. Luckily SLI capability shouldn't cost that much.

Other advises: Buy a lot of RAM. The parts that are mechanical in some way should be of good quality. So, invest in good quality power unit and fans. In the hard disk section it is really hard to tell which one is the best. A long warranty is always a good sign. Even more important are the devices with which you interact with the computer: display, mouse and keyboard. I made the mistake that I invested in raw power rather than good quality.

The MHz is only one part of the RAM equation. The system goes like this: the MHz tells how many times (cycles) per second the memory is read. Then there are timing settings which tell how many cycles you have to wait for certain things to happen. For example, if you send a command "read location ABCD" when the memory receives the command, it has to wait 3 cycles before it actually performs the command. How different MHz and timing settings affect your system performance is hard to predict. But, buy better than the worst.

[unsobill]

yeah its new era of DirectX 10 - i suggest saving money for G80 cards or something that supports DX10 - or you can be nutcase, like me, and buy 8800Gtx like myself today ...

[Scipio]

Don't waste money into a 600W power supply. A 420W is good enough with this GPU, except you want to build an SLI-machine. I own a 7900GTO and a 420W, no problem with it.

DDR2 Ram is standard today anyway. If you run XP on your machine, one GB is enough. You won't notice a difference between 1 or 2 GB when playing. If you want to run Windows Vista, get 2GB of Ram. However, there is no need to purchase Vista now, since it will take at least one year until a game is released that MUST have DirectX 10.

[Schrullenhaft]

I assume, by the price you listed, that you're specifically looking at the Gigabyte GA-965P-S3 motherboard, correct ? As Reichenberg points out, the Intel 965P chipsets require 240-pin DDR2 memory. With the latest motherboards the memory you get can make quite a difference in the stability of the system:

Only DDR2-800 memory supporting JEDEC approved 1.8V operation with timings of 5-5-5 or 6-6-6 is supported on Intel Desktop Boards based on Intel 965 Express Chipsets.

What this means is that a number of higher performance DDR2 DIMMs that have high voltage requirements may have problems with this motherboard (and almost all other motherboards with 965/975/Nvidia 680 chipsets). For the best stability you need to find DDR2 RAM that is at 1.8V or possibly just above it (1.9V to 2.0V), though staying strictly within this voltage requirement limits the performance of RAM you can purchase. The further your RAM's voltage requirement is above 1.8V, the more likely you'll experience problems of one sort or another. Higher performance memory with higher voltage requirements can work, but there seems to be far more issues with these DIMMs.

I'd suggest trying to get a memory module listed in Gigabyte's Qualified Vendor List for Memory (PDF). There'll be others that will work that aren't listed here, but those that are listed here should work. The only problem with these lists though is that sometimes DIMM manufacturers often switch the actual memory chips used on the DIMMs (depending on what's most cost effective and other availability issues).

This particular Kingston 2Gb DDR2-533 kit is recommended by the Kingston online configurator and is very close to what Gigabyte has listed as one of the qualified DIMMs (Newegg listing). It's also just about in your ballpark for prices. While 2Gb isn't necessary (though it would almost seem so for Windows VISTA), it probably is a good idea to purchase 2Gb just to be safe.

As for choosing between the Nvidia 7900GS and the ATI X1950PRO, I would probably pick the Nvidia part. I'd pick Nvidia over ATI because Nvidia does a better job in terms of performance and compatiblity with their OpenGL drivers (which is what will be needed for CMSF), they're also a bit more functional for all of the CMx1 titles and they just do a slightly better job with their drivers overall. The ATI X1950PRO on the other hand does offer good DirectX 9.x performance for the price (somewhat better than the 7900GS), which means that TOW will probably run faster on it than the 7900GS. You can do some benchmark comparisons with Tom's Hardware VGA charts. Make sure you select the correct amount of memory on the card, etc. when doing comparisons, your videocard selections will stick out in blue on the charts.

As for the power supply, the Newegg ratings on it are good (for the number of people that have rated it). 600W does seem to be somewhat more than you need right now, but I wouldn't really worry about that since you may keep the power supply to power your next upgrade (assuming it remains compatible at that point). A quality power supply is going to cost some money and it can be worthwhile getting something that can handle loads well without overheating and/or causing instability issues.

[ February 08, 2007, 03:19 PM: Message edited by: Schrullenhaft ]

[traemyn]

Originally posted by iplaygames2:

Core2duo E6400 - $222

I didn't see anyone say anything about this yet.. but you can get the new E4300 at around $160 and with VERY LITTLE EFFORT overclocking it can basically match a stock X6800 in performance.

The only C2D you should buy right now other than the E4300 is the E6600 for its extra 2MB cache which gives you a slight performance boost with some things. But since you are on a tight budget you can't get better than the E4300 for price/performance.

Someone can explain it better than me, but in my understanding the E4300 FSB is set lower and therefore better suited for you b/c you don't have to spend a lot of money on high performance 1066mhz RAM to get good overclocking results.

[traemyn]

void, duplicate

[Redwolf]

Avoid that no-name power supply. Get a nice 500 - 550W Seasonic (also offered by many other brandnames).

Do not waste money on fast RAM, it doesn't improve your real-world performance anywhere close to what the cost is. 2-3% speed at most. The "Value" set from G.Skill and similar 2x 1 GB kits will do fine. Can be had much cheaper than last week right now, too, so you are lucky.

If you have extra money get a better card. The CPU is very strong, if this system is exclusively for gaming then it can feed a better card.

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by traemyn:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by iplaygames2:

Core2duo E6400 - $222

I didn't see anyone say anything about this yet.. but you can get the new E4300 at around $160 and with VERY LITTLE EFFORT overclocking it can basically match a stock X6800 in performance.

The only C2D you should buy right now other than the E4300 is the E6600 for its extra 2MB cache which gives you a slight performance boost with some things. But since you are on a tight budget you can't get better than the E4300 for price/performance.

Someone can explain it better than me, but in my understanding the E4300 FSB is set lower and therefore better suited for you b/c you don't have to spend a lot of money on high performance 1066mhz RAM to get good overclocking results. </font>

[iplaygames2]

I appreciate the info guys. I figured some of you would know alot better than I what these components need to be maximized. Thanks

I've never done any overclocking, and it's just not something that I have the time to devote to, especially after reading Redwolfs last post. I know some people are able to overclock varying aspects of their computers with great results, but I've also heard horror stories, as well. Not really something I'm willing to risk, not at this point anyway.

[Reichenberg]

If you want to have the option of using SLI in the future you have to go for a mobo with nvidia 680 chipset. The intel chipsets 945/965/975 do not have this option. Most of the mobos with the new nvidia chipsets are quite expensive still.

Uwe

[iplaygames2]

What about an ASUS A8n-SLI ATX mobo with an AMD processor? Athlon 64 3500+?

That would be suitable for SLI down the road, keep the cost down, and sacrifice some CPU power..

[Schrullenhaft]

The Core2 Duos are really the performance kings for the price right now (E6600 and below). You could definitely reduce your costs with an AMD-based SLI motherboard and CPU, though SLI on anything but an Nvidia 680 motherboard will be PCI Express 8x on both slots (rather than 16x). The Nvidia 680 chipsets can support PCI Express 16x on both slots, though the boards based on this chipset are a bit temperamental right now.

Anyway, I believe that there's a significant performance difference between the E6400/E4300 and an Athlon-64 3500+, even if you don't overclock. Overclocking does require a beefy, high quality power supply, reliable high quality RAM and a good cooling solution (typically not the retail heatsink/fan that comes with the CPU).

With SLI you need to (with the way it works right now) have two of the same cards (i.e. - two 7900GS, etc.). This can be a bit harder if you purchase the videocards at different times, such as expecting to use SLI 1 year from now when a 7900GS might be a bit harder to find. SLI configurations also tend to have a few more compatibility problems with games since it is just that much more complex to get two GPUs doing something without issues compared to just one.

As Redwolf suggested, you could go with a Seasonic power supply (Newegg listing), but you'll need to go with fewer watts to fit your budget. However that shouldn't be too much of a problem since it is quite possible that lower wattage Seasonics could outperform the Kingwins with higher wattages (though I don't know this for certain or how much of a real-world difference there is between the brands).

[Reichenberg]

With an AMD CPU you have more options with SLI and Crossfire - at least you can build such a system for way less money than with the Intel-Nvidia 680 combo.

But if you want to go towards AMD I would strongly recommend a mobo with their "newest" AM2 socket. The mobos are less expensive than a comparative Intel mobo and you have more options the the older socket 939 mobos (AMD). In the low and mid cost segment (~180€/$) all comparable CPUs (AMD vs. Intel) are more or less equal in price with some small advantages for Intel. If you look for a more potent CPU, then Intel is the only way to go.

I am not familiar with the Intel policy for future CPU sockets, but my plan so far is to go for a AM2 mobo with an Nvidia 550 - 570 chipset (some of them are with SLI option) and a relativly small CPU (X2 4200). This way I can upgrade (maybe next year) to a faster CPU with the same socket up to at least a X2 6000 - hopefully even higher. When these fast CPUs are significantly down in price.

Uwe

[Redwolf]

The pick between AMD and Intel can be simple or not, depending on your preferences.

Normally, for mixed workloads, there is no question that Intel is better rights now. The performance of the Core2 chips is 20-30% and more better at the same clockspeed than AMD64. And the Intel mainboard chipsets are much better. They don't use as much power, produce less heat, don't require chipset fans (most often breaking fan for me) and, most importantly, they have much better drivers than the NVidia chipsets, which are often horrible.

Now, the special case is a machine built exclusively for gaming with the best graphics at a moderate cost.

That situation is special because you need SLI, and graphics cards are more important than CPUs.

Since the Core2 mainboards are more expensive than the AMD mainboards, and since an Intel CPU with a NVidia chipset give you hassle-free SLI (as opposed to Intel chipsets that need hacked drivers) you could argue that it is better to get a cheap AMD/NVidia SLI mainboard and invest the saved money into graphics cards. You will probably be able to get a higher framerate at very high resolutions and AA/AF settings that way.

I still advice against it, though. A recent test (xbitlabs? I forgot) has shown that even the FX-62 AMD CPU is a bottleneck when feeding dual 8800GTX. The CPU is just not strong enough and a Core X6800 was getting better framerates. It was not graphics limited.

And while you might play 1920x1200 16x/16x right now, what do you do when new games come out and tax your system more? You tune down the settings. As soon as you tune down the graphics settings your CPU becomes more important and your "savings" have reversed, you payed more for less performance.

Personally I don't think SLI is neccessary in first place. One high-end card always does it for me.

[iplaygames2]

This is not a machine exclusively for gaming. It's a box that my wife and I share at home. Granted, it's used more for gaming than other applications, but it's still got to do other stuff for her that she does through her work.

I've got to be honest; I'm thinking Intel for the processor, and the more I look into it, the more I think SLI is something I'd never use. This will allow me to save some money on the mobo and the power supply. If I go with a Seagate, will 500w be sufficient? I am thinking of adding another internal HD, and want to have enough juice for it. Got DVD and CD-RW drives, ZIP, floppy, video card, sound card, and other stuff in the mobo. I would like this PSU to be usable in 18 months or so when I upgrade again.

[Reichenberg]

Depending on the video card you are going to use the 500W of the power supply still seems a bit high. If you want to go for a high end video card (maybe even upgrade at one point to the coming ATI cards) then 500W would be adequate. Everything lower like 7900GS/GT or 1950XT would do with a GOOD name brand 400 - 450W power supply. And do not forget the noise they make!!

As mentioned before the Seasonic power supplies are known for being relaitvly quite and stable for the max current on the different lines. E.g. the Seasonic S12-430HB. You just have to look with this power supply to get some PCI-express adapters to it. At least the newer revisions of it should come with a PCI-express adapter already.

Another option could be the Silverstone ST40EF with 400W - same here with the PCI-express adapter for the video card. Check if there is one included.

I personally would go for the Seasonic one because it gets the best reviews. There is even one with only 380W (S12-380HB) that should be able to do the job.

Uwe

[iplaygames2]

OK guys, couple more questions.

After doing all this research, I've decided I need a new case to hold everything. It doesn't need to be anything too fancy, but functional. I also need to decide on a mobo, and I'm not sure how much of an issue it is, but I need to be able to have USB2.0 inputs on the front of my case (and obviously a mobo that will allow it). The way the home PC is setup, getting to the back of it is a real pain, and it's not easy getting to the USB ports on the side of my current box. So, I need some in the front.

I've pretty much decided to go with the Intel E6400 processor, so can anyone recommend a mobo/case that would go well with it? Thanks again!

[Schrullenhaft]

Though I haven't used it personally, this CoolerMaster Centrurion 5 Black Mid Tower ATX case is fairly popular at Newegg for a decent price. Obviously more money will get you something nicer. I suggest reading through the reviews to see what experiences people have had with it to see if anything would annoy you or not about it.

The Gigabyte GA-965P-S3 motherboard you had mentioned earlier is a fairly popular board that should serve you well. It does lack IEEE-1394 Firewire, but it does have some USB ports for the front/case connectors along the bottom of the board near the PCI slots. Some users complained of 'problems' setting up the USB (?). Some users report problems with 'cold booting' and memory compatibility, though you may see this with *a lot* of 965/975/Nvidia 680 motherboards.

Again, I don't own either of these products, so I don't have any personal experience to relate about them and their reliability or problems.

[Redwolf]

The Cooler Master cases usually offer nice functionality (you'll always find the usb ports where you want them). They are usually made from aluminium, which will be louder, and overall the build quality isn't that great.

For permanently running machine I prefer the Chieftech cases (also resold by other brands), which are steel, quiet and solid, and functionless

For front USB ports I wouldn't rely on the case. Install a flashcard reader with USB hub into the 3.5" or a 5.25" drive bay. That's what I do.

You can also have USB ports/hub in LCD monitors.

[iplaygames2]

OK guys, one last question. I want to install a 2nd internal HD for storage (actually, my wife has a ton of stuff on our HD right now, the 2nd drive would be for games and such).

Is there any problems with this? I mean, I will still boot from the C drive, but if I install a 2nd HD, will I just be able to use it as a storage area? Install programs there, etc? I know the jumpers will probably have to be set differently or something, I've never had multi HD systems before..

Thanks again for all the help.

[Schrullenhaft]

Assuming that the second drive will be the old hard drive from the current computer (whether that may be a permanent or temporary install)...

Yes, you should be able to install the old drive in your new computer and use it as 'storage' where you can install programs, etc. to. Do you know what type of connection the old hard drive uses - PATA (40 pins) or SATA (small, somewhat thicker cable) ? If it is PATA, then you will need to hook it up to the same connection as your optical drive (CD/DVD/CDRW) since there is only one PATA IDE port on this motherboard.

That might cause a bit of a problem depending on where your optical drive is installed in relation to where the old hard drive will be installed (the distance between the two rear connections). One other annoying thing about this particular Gigabyte board is that the PATA IDE connector is at the bottom of the board, necessitating either installing your optical drive as low as possible or getting a much longer IDE cable (or possibly both regarding the use of the old hard drive).

If the old drive is SATA then there should be little to no problems. But both hard drives in the system probably can't be PATA IDE since you only have one PATA IDE connector (which will support two IDE devices). If you're going to have an optical drive on your computer (which you almost assuredly will) then you can have only one PATA IDE hard drive installed.

Also another suggestion - you may want to keep the old hard drive disconnected initially as you reinstall Windows on the new SATA drive. If the old PATA IDE hard drive is seen, some motherboards may boot from it before booting from a SATA drive, which might cause problems during a Windows install. So to keep things simple, physically install the old hard drive (to make sure things will reach, etc.), but leave it disconnected from the IDE cable and install Windows first. Once Windows is fully setup and everything seems to be booting fine, then hook up the old hard drive.

[ February 16, 2007, 08:09 AM: Message edited by: Schrullenhaft ]

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by iplaygames2:

Is there any problems with this? I mean, I will still boot from the C drive, but if I install a 2nd HD, will I just be able to use it as a storage area? Install programs there, etc? I know the jumpers will probably have to be set differently or something, I've never had multi HD systems before..

In the Windoze world, there is quite a few BRAINDEAD software that insists on installing into C: or even if installed elsewhere insists on still keeping parts of itself, or write runtime files, to C:

I've been bitten by that a lot, and it is a real pain. I try to stay at 20 GB C: for backup purposes and have everything moved out to data drives (actually a network drive), but there's just incooperative software.

(Yes, I set $TEMP)