Air Units

[Imperial Grunt]

I don't think that image of the 200mm cannon worked, so here it is again:

Maybe it can be called the "Zeus".

[Toby Haynes]

Well - assuming that TBG has the SciFi Forces MegaPak, they have plenty of options to draw from. There are some seriously large calibre weapon systems in there, plus something which looks like an oversized turret minigun which looks destined to chew through aerial units

[Imperial Grunt]

Originally posted by Toby Haynes:

Well - assuming that TBG has the SciFi Forces MegaPak, they have plenty of options to draw from. There are some seriously large calibre weapon systems in there, plus something which looks like an oversized turret minigun which looks destined to chew through aerial units

I think they may be holding back....hopefully more will be coming soon!

[Imperial Grunt]

Originally posted by Toby Haynes:

Imperial - is that a unit you actually have the model for or just a screenshot?

I can probably knock something like that up in Blender given a couple of hours (low-poly version) and then look towards putting all the details together later (high-poly overlay for baking). Let me know if you are interested.

Very interested in seeing what you can do, especially if you can simulate something close to that gunship concept!

[poesel]

Hmm, they have the Sci-Fi forces, -tanks, Dropships and Hover Tanks - thats quite some models. Including some I have very good ideas for...

Would make vehicle creation much easier.

Oh, and I think I know which vehicles we will see in the WWII mod...

[Imperial Grunt]

Yep, hopefully we will see more official unit additions to the game. I think a simple, "drag and click" unit construction kit add-on would be cool. A simple point value for chassis, engine, type of mobility, armor, weapons, etc, something like that old game "Car Wars" would be very interestingl. An "army painter" and other "style" add-ons to make each player's vehicles, turrets, and infantry (and aircraft even-but NO mechas!) look and operate just a little differently would be a very fun, and even tactically challenging, addition. I am not sure if the server could support that, but I think it would be cool.

[Toby Haynes]

Originally posted by Imperial Grunt:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Toby Haynes:

I can probably knock something like that up in Blender given a couple of hours (low-poly version) ...

Very interested in seeing what you can do, especially if you can simulate something close to that gunship concept! </font>

[Imperial Grunt]

That looks awesome, I would maybe add some vertical surfaces, since it does have to operate in atmosphere.

I know this is asking alot animation wise, but if the engines in the back could tilt on an axis, like the Osprey's engines, that would allow the aircraft to approach very slow speeds and not stall.

I imagine the optics and 30mm chaingun is under the nose and that the missiles would be hung under the wings.

How about a Greek name, like "Fury"? Its your model though, so name it as you wish.

Outstanding!!!

[Toby Haynes]

Originally posted by Imperial Grunt:

That looks awesome, I would maybe add some vertical surfaces, since it does have to operate in atmosphere.

Thanks for the kind comments.

Yes - it's a little spacey as it stands. On the other hand, its design is closer to an attack helicopter than a fixed wing plane. Only the rotors are missing - given that DT is an antimatter-propulsion scenario and this would have to operate in vacuum as well as atmosphere, I wondered whether such control surfaces made sense.

Originally posted by Imperial Grunt:

I know this is asking alot animation wise, but if the engines in the back could tilt on an axis, like the Osprey's engines, that would allow the aircraft to approach very slow speeds and not stall.

Rotating jets down towards the ground (Harrier jump jet style) for low speeds would be extremely cool. I have no idea whether the game engine could hook up to such an idea though - maybe if Clay or MadMatt sees this, they could comment. It's easy enough to "cut" the jets off the model, so it's not a difficult modelling problem if I revisit this later.

Originally posted by Imperial Grunt:

I imagine the optics and 30mm chaingun is under the nose and that the missiles would be hung under the wings.

Yes - I've left space on the surface of the model for any cannons/machine-guns/missile launchers, rather than build them into the structure. It strikes me that any futuristic weapon system should have some field-of-fire rather than just locked to the direction that the craft is pointing.

Something like this would have to have an anti-ATGM/SAM system otherwise it would have zero survivability. Of course, that might present an option in game allowing good players to use it to penetrate SAM defences. Whether that is desirable or not is another matter.

Originally posted by Imperial Grunt:

How about a Greek name, like "Fury"? Its your model though, so name it as you wish.

Fury sound good. I'll browse through some mythologies and see what else jumps out. A dragonfly was used as inspiration for the original sketch (although those with sharp eyes will note that I've stretched the "tail" on the model much further than the sketch shows it).

[Imperial Grunt]

Given the limitless fuel of anti-matter, a gunship that flies on only vectored thrust is possible, negating the need for the usual control surfaces. It already as wings for lift at higher speeds. But in combat, it will mostly be moving at helicopter speeds, usually at about tree top level.

I like the way the forward turret on the chin of the gunship is low, it can actually rotate 360 degrees and engage, provided it is higher than the target, which as a gunship it should be. The missiles actually might fire from internal bays in the wings or body of the gunship and not hang on the wings themselves, like in the picture I posted. The Commanche, F-117, F-22, and F-35 all use missile bays.

Regarding AAA, its advantage in speed over ground vehicles, and its firepower would be balanced by the fact that a Cobra missile turret or AAA tower would kill it in a few moments once the gunship entered the threat envelope. Same with the AAA vehicles. Pilots would have to be very careful about where they fly. And flying too slow would be deadly too.

I hope this thing makes it into the game one day (after the heavy infantry squads!), it would add a new dynamic to the tactics and gameplay.

[poesel]

Great work Toby - that thing looks very good.

Turning the thrusters in game is already possible. Its just not been done in any of the existing models. Take a look at this tag:

Animation

Play balancing an air unit will be very hard IMHO. Hitting flying objects in DT is hard (unless you are yurch ) so it shouldn't be that fast. Its main enemies would be the 20mm (rapid fire rate) and guided missiles.

An automatic defense (ala Hermes) versus missiles would be a bit boring and unfair against the missile carrier since he has very limited ammo.

Chaff with a certain chance to confuse the missile is also unsatisfying and what do you do with manually guided missiles?

My proposal would be to put a 14mm rotary on the air unit and allow its controlling player to switch the gun view towards any incoming missile ('b' key for instance). He then can manually try to shoot down the incoming missile. Shooting down auto-locked missiles would be easier since they fly staright to the target. This is fair since its easier for the shooter, too. Manually guided missiles would be harder to hit because they can fly any path. If the shooter locks the missile (yellow) very late during flight the reaction time for the target might be too small to react. Fair, too, since thats also hard for the shooter.

That system would involve both players in a battle and make an interesting part of the game. It also looks like its not too much work to implement.

[Imperial Grunt]

In my opinion I would not put any missile defense on it, in order to help play balance. It would be great if every vehicle in the game had a "missile lock" tone for the players that would warn them if a missile was looking at them and when it got missile lock. The best defense this gunship would have against cobra and ATGM missiles fired at it would be to dive down and try to get some masking terrian between itself and the incoming missile. And this of course brings it even further into the threat range of all the things running around on the ground. So that is a good balance against the gunships maneuverability and firepower. And the long range AAA vehicle is this thing's biggest threat.

And of course there are things like EMP, which would make it fall out of the sky like a stone.

And each side should only get maybe 2 of these.

[Toby Haynes]

Originally posted by poesel71:

Great work Toby - that thing looks very good.

Turning the thrusters in game is already possible. Its just not been done in any of the existing models.

Thanks. That animation link is intruiging - I can think of a number of neat effects using that (although I'm not sure we are ready for Heavy Mech warfare ).

Originally posted by poesel71:

Play balancing an air unit will be very hard IMHO. Hitting flying objects in DT is hard (unless you are yurch ) so it shouldn't be that fast. Its main enemies would be the 20mm (rapid fire rate) and guided missiles.

I'm in two minds over this one - so two variants. A fast reconnaissance with light weapon systems and a slower multi-weaponed beasty intended to cause havoc from above (heavy artillery bouncing bombs anyone?). Anything slower than the dropships will be instantly wiped out by the bots who are quite decent with 120mm AP shells at distances around 1000m or less. The slower one needs sufficient punch to make the risk of being hit worth the effort.

Originally posted by poesel71:

An automatic defense (ala Hermes) versus missiles would be a bit boring ...snip... My proposal would be to put a 14mm rotary on the air unit and allow its controlling player to switch the gun view towards any incoming missile ('b' key for instance). He then can manually try to shoot down the incoming missile. Shooting down auto-locked missiles would be easier since they fly staright to the target. This is fair since its easier for the shooter, too. Manually guided missiles would be harder to hit because they can fly any path. If the shooter locks the missile (yellow) very late during flight the reaction time for the target might be too small to react. Fair, too, since thats also hard for the shooter.

That system would involve both players in a battle and make an interesting part of the game. It also looks like its not too much work to implement.

I do like the idea of using 14mm systems as a manual antimissile system. I'll have to give that a try if I manage to get this one off the ground .

One thing I did realise when playing Desert Mesa (with the Thor perched on top of a mesa) was that the very top of tanks are quite vulnerable. That leads me to think that 20mm or 30mm cannon from the air would be devastating for almost all vehicles. Fitting auto 90mm AP turrets to this thing would be extremely amusing but somewhat unbalancing

[Imperial Grunt]

Two varients would be great, a scout and a gunship. That is how the Kiowas and Apaches work together, same with US Marine Cobras and Hueys.

DT does model top armor well. I have been getting better at using ATGs against top armor while jumping with light infantry. It often works.

The Paladin seems to take alot of hits though. They are like eggs, sometimes it takes just one shot, and other times it takes 5.

Dropping bombs from this thing like a WWII dive bomber, epecially if the bomber had 90mm turrets on it, would make a "Ogre" aircraft. My vote is to stick with the gunship and scout.

Looks like alot of fun!

[Imperial Grunt]

And to change the topic a little...here is a Valkryie special ops team!

12mm sniper rifles with API (armor piercing, incendiary)-500m more range, more penetration, and much tighter shot group than standard 10mm rifle)

ATG launcher(only 2 ATGs each)

More mobile than light infantry

Jets need to be added

Cannot operate in a vacumn due to the standard uniform being a sport bra and exercise shorts!

[ January 01, 2007, 04:38 PM: Message edited by: Imperial Grunt ]

[Imperial Grunt]

I really like this for an infantry carrier vehicle (ICV). A "calvary" squad consisting of a light infantry HMG squad and this vehicle would be very useful. With the heavy infantry marines, this would bring light, medium, and heavy infantry squads to the game.

-Little more armor than a Shrike, little less mobility

-Can embark one infantry squad

-Armed with twin 14mm guns

-Carries extra ammo for infantry squads

-Ideally, it would be great if this vehicle would automatically follow a dismounted squad at 500-1000m or so and also engage targets when the player has dismounted the squad

-Calvary squad drops via a dropship

[Imperial Grunt]

Originally posted by Toby Haynes:

Well - assuming that TBG has the SciFi Forces MegaPak, they have plenty of options to draw from. There are some seriously large calibre weapon systems in there, plus something which looks like an oversized turret minigun which looks destined to chew through aerial units

I guess you mean this one, since a 14mm rotary AAA gun is already in game, this would be an easy add-on.

If your scout and gunships get added, it only makes sense that a AAA gun turret be added to support the cobra SAM turrets. The AAA guns should have less range, but the bullets "git thar lot quicker" than a missile, so for low flying gunships, the AAA is a worse threat.

In that regard, the "long range AAA" Paladin uses a 14mm rotary AAA gun while the SAM turrets and the Hermes SAM use cobra missiles that have a much shorter range. Should'nt that be the other way around?

It would also be very deadly in ground role versus infantry.

Actually I think you meant this one:

How about a few of each?!

These things will make the sky look like Normandy during the airborne drops.

[Toby Haynes]

'Bout time I gave an update (just to prove I've not been totally idle in the interim).

432 triangles, so it's hardly high-poly. With turrets mounted on various points, it should be in line with the tanks and other units. Most of the tanks seem to be in the 750 triangles range without turrets. Now that I've finally got a grip on the model, I shall try and turn it into something in-game.

[Imperial Grunt]

Very impressive!

Is it going to fire missiles from internal bays or are you going to mount the missiles on hardpoints under the wings?

Really looking forward to seeing this thing in action. Picked a name yet?

[poesel]

Toby - Iceman, jdev and myself have been there where you are now.

If you want some help drop me a mail.

[Toby Haynes]

Originally posted by Imperial Grunt:

Very impressive!

Is it going to fire missiles from internal bays or are you going to mount the missiles on hardpoints under the wings?

Really looking forward to seeing this thing in action. Picked a name yet?

I'll mount all weapon systems externally on hardpoints. There are hardpoints under the nose and under each wing. Maybe one under the tail if we want to get a really vicious flying brick...

That is consistent with all the existing units. I might eventually look at creating new weapon-system mounts for generic use but that will come later. Right now, getting this to fly in game is the next trick.

As for a name, I can think of nothing more suitable than Icarus. After all, flying too close to the sun would almost certainly be bad for this craft.

[Imperial Grunt]

Icarus sounds good to me.

[Imperial Grunt]

When this thing crashes, is it going to bounce along the ground like the dropships do? Or is it going to crash and burn like an aircraft really would?

The dropship bounce needs to be fixed in my opinion.

[Imperial Grunt]

Toby, any updates on how your Icarus Gunship is coming along?

[Toby Haynes]

I've not had a lot of time recently (Curling and other related issues!) but I'm hoping to get a first test put together. I've read through Clay's documentation on setting spotting points and hull collisions. I've looked at the stuff on the wiki. I just need to sit down and "Do It".