Area fire and accuracy (lost in the shuffle)

[thewood]

I have asked a few times and not seen any official response. I knopw others have asked something similar.

I have noticed that area fire seems to snap to a grid. Not only does it make it difficult to target a spot in dense terrain, I am curious what it does to any accuracy that weapons have.

[Battlefront.com]

This is being discussed in more detail in this thread, but in short Area Fire does snap to the center of an Action Spot. This tells the unit to spread its fire out around that Action Spot. The degree of effectiveness depends, as it should, on what is being fired. A single guy with a pistol is going to have a hard time doing effective Area Fire, a Stryker with Mk19 is going to do a really good job hitting that Action Spot.

Steve

[dalem]

I would think that a better form of Area Fire would have involved pulling a circle/oval/box around an actual area, and having fire distributed within that area. Obviously the tighter the area the more fire placed, etc.

That was something I was hoping for since CM:BO days actually.

I know with 1:1 it's a dead idea, but I would have done away with fire distinctions completely, making ever smallarms unit pull that oval every time. Smallest area means the unit is attempting point fire, large oval means area fire, etc.

-dale

[Battlefront.com]

Dale,

This isn't a bad idea at all. Basically what you are asking for is a Target Arc that is active instead of reactive. It's something that was considered, but for some reason wasn't acted on. I honestly can not remember why since it was a very long time ago. Personally, I would like to redo the entire way targeting is done (from a UI standpoint) for CM:WW2. As is always the case, nothing is perfect and therefore everything can (in theory) be done better. After using the existing system for a couple of years I think I have a better way. What way is that? Well, let's see if Charles implements it (later on) and I'll tell you I generally do not discuss "what if" design decisions because they can set expectations. So at this point all I am comfortable saying is that I think we can make some improvements sooner rather than later.

Steve

[Guest]

I liked CC's approach -- an order without a visible target was an area fire order. Once an enemy unit was spotted, though, the area fire got pointed real fast. That might just have been in CCM, though, I can't remember.

[Battlefront.com]

Phillip,

I don't think the regular CC game had Area Fire, did it? It's been so long now I can't recall!

In any case, this is a bit of a problem that has no easy solution. If Unit A is doing area fire on trench containing a HMG and a Squad is more important than switching to a direct targeting of a 2 man bailed out vehicle crew that is moving about. Also, what do you do when the targeting switches off to 2 man crew and wipes it out? Now that MMG and Squad are not getting shot at and your unit isn't doing anything to change that.

No, I think the logic the way it is now is the way to go. You issue an Area Fire, it sticks and ignores what else is going on around it UNLESS the situation is radically altered. The TacAI is already capable (as it was in CMx1) of self cancelling an Area Target Command if self preservation becomes an issue.

Steve

[Yair Iny]

Hi Steve,

On this same note of targeting are fire, would it be possible to add the storey selection popup menu you get for movement into a building (you know, the floor 1, floor 2, roof menu) when area targeting a building? The reason I ask is that for those of us with ATI cards, it is very difficult to target stories from a 3d perspective and i usually go to view 6 when giving commands or selecting units, and of course, it is impossible to target non-roof stories from view 6.

Thanks,

Yair

[KNac]

Originally posted by dalem:

I know with 1:1 it's a dead idea,

-dale

Artillery wors in asimilar way so I don't see why it can't be implemented.

I'm all about this too, I would like area fire to behave exactly like arty targeting now: line and area (maybe 2 commands?) and the unit would spread fire throught the area randomlly (or following a patern I don't care).

[thewood]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

This is being discussed in more detail in this thread, but in short Area Fire does snap to the center of an Action Spot. This tells the unit to spread its fire out around that Action Spot. The degree of effectiveness depends, as it should, on what is being fired. A single guy with a pistol is going to have a hard time doing effective Area Fire, a Stryker with Mk19 is going to do a really good job hitting that Action Spot.

Steve

As I stated this creates some very frustrating situations in dense terrain. One of the main features of CMSF is urban warfare modeling. Yet, I can't recon by fire on any areas where the action spot is hidden from view of the firing unit. Before you dismiss this as not happening often, it is happening at least a couple times a scenario. I would imagine that this is an effects everyone feature.

edit: to clarify, what I have an issue with is giving an area fire order that is refused because the firing unit can not see the action spot near the target.

PS: I don't see where this is discussed in that thread.

[ September 30, 2007, 05:56 AM: Message edited by: thewood ]

[Battlefront.com]

thewood,

As I stated this creates some very frustrating situations in dense terrain. One of the main features of CMSF is urban warfare modeling. Yet, I can't recon by fire on any areas where the action spot is hidden from view of the firing unit. Before you dismiss this as not happening often, it is happening at least a couple times a scenario. I would imagine that this is an effects everyone feature.

For sure it exists and for sure it isn't just you. Version 1.04 has a fix for area fire against buildings, which is the single most common issue that someone will face from game to game.

edit: to clarify, what I have an issue with is giving an area fire order that is refused because the firing unit can not see the action spot near the target.

LOS/LOF works both ways. If you can't draw LOS to an Action Spot, you can't shoot at it. The same works in reverse, don't forget. Any unit in that space that you can't shoot at also can't shoot at you.

There is no way to completely fix this issue you're talking about 2ithout reducing the underlying Action Spots down to partial meters per spot. Refining the system will decrease its occurance, probably, but not make it go away.

In other words, even if we moved to a 4x4m grid (which would kill most computers) you would still have situations where you want to aim for a particular pixel on the map and can not because you can't draw LOS to it. Therefore, fundamentally it is something that will just have to be lived with.

Personally the only time I find this a problem is with extreme angels against buildings. That's the thing that has been improved for v1.04.

Here's a tip. If you want to Area Fire on something you can't draw LOS to, put an Area Fire on it and then move the unit in a way that should give it a better angle on the spot in question. As soon as the unit acheives LOS to that spot it will open up on it.

BTW, this is one of the many major improvements to CMx2 that seems to be under appreciated by CMx1 veterans. Not only can you predesignate a space to whack with fire before you actually are able to, you can predesignate enemy units to whack as soon as they get into your crosshairs. Gone are the CMx1 days of knowing that there is a tank around the corner and just praying that as you move your tank into position that it happens to spot the tank and not some infantry on the opposite side of the map, thereby giving the enemy the first shot. I'm taking it that I haven't heard people singing the praise of this feature because it just feels so natural that people have noticed it

Steve

[Huntarr]

This is the joy that Steve is talking about. Predesignated targets. "DEATHBLOSSOM" baby

You got a big OOHRAH outta me and a few others that love WEGO and understand that was probably one the most important features in game.

http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=52;t=002928;p=2#000029

[Yair Iny]

Steve, is the pre-designated target functionality there in 1.03? How can unit A target enemy B when A cannot see B? I mean this mechanically, if you select A you don't "see" B on the screen anymore, since A didn't spot it yet...

Also, can you please respond regarding the targetting suggestion I raised to help those with ATI on Vista? right now it is very hard to target mid-stories in buildings with the very loose cursor positioning in 3d views...

Thanks

[KNac]

Yair predesignated AREA targets, I think he is refeering to. Not untis you can't see cause obviouslly you shouldn't know is there! But you can use cover arcs if you supect an enemy in behind that corner so it won't be distracted by a far away enemy. 1.04 is lloking good, now we just need to get our hands on it

[Battlefront.com]

KNac is correct, though if playing the basic method of play you should be able to predesignate actual enemy units because Relative Spotting is nutered

I've asked Charles about the targeting popup as a work around for ATI people suffering from the driver bug (which nearly 5 weeks later still isn't fixed ). I don't know what will happen there.

Steve

[Yair Iny]

Thanks Steve, If you asked Charles it means you are thinking about it and will do it if it is feasible. That's all I could ask for.

Cheers