CMSF 1.08 with WWII AIR SUPPORT

[redbear]

I was playing a scenario of the ghost campaign that involve the use of the F 15 E and the apache support. I assign a building as a target for the F15 E and i saw that it may three passes and delivery three bombs all away from the target, one near miss 5 meters or so!!!! and the other two landed 10 meters away from the building. I not going to talk about precision guide munition (JDAM & LGB) because is not the scope of the game. i Think by the side of the crater the bomb that is modeled within the game is the MK 84 2000 lb free fall bomb. within the f15E F16 or A10 they have the avionics to deliver that bomb with precision over the target. I will just talk of the basic delivery system That is call CCIP, Continuously computing impact point ( left apart the radar and laser designation) is the simple way to delivery iron bombs like the Mk84. It is display on the HUD of the plane as a line that goes straight down and end with a piper at the end, it shows at all time when the bomb will hit if you released at that moment, it calculated the winds all is automatic all the pilot have to do is flight the piper to the target and presss the triger when it reach it and the bomb will be right on the money, not five meters or ten. You could find an example of the CCIP mode in the following article from simhq the simulator that was used to describe it was LOCKON The plane is the A 10. http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_101a.html

The guy who wrote this article flown the real air plane in Germany he is a vietnam veteran and he likes to compare simulator to he real life experices . there explaint in detail how it works and it is the same in the real plane and works the same in the F15E and the F16 i not goin in detail with it.

Just to make this short the Apache have a similar to aim and fire their rockets instead of a piper is a bar that turn solid when you got a good probability to hit the target with the rockets but here you have into consideration the dispersion of the rockets if the target is small but if is a house it have to hit it and the rockets go straight no in all directions.

So CMSF is modern combat but the way the planes behave are not cosidering modern and seem to behave as a WWII plane that all it have to aim was a fix paiper that use to aim their guns in the case of a fighter for the quantity of bombs involve, also into cosideration a good WWII pilot will hit a building with that sigh so we got a modern troops with nearlly useless or dump air support. so the F15 and F16 are a P51 with a trainer in the cockpit and the apache is flying areobatics when it fires is rockets and the avionics of these planes do not exits.

I think it have to be addressed and solve in a patch i think that the problem here is that the air support is calculated the same way as artillery it added a dispersion to turn it down but this is unrealistic that is a wrong point of view by the way the rockets behave in the apache indicates that it is a bug so another patch is needed. or is something missing by you guys and have to check.

[the Fighting Seabee]

I agree. But they should still leave in some chance that the weapon will miss the target. These new weapons are extremely accurate, but do miss the mark from time to time, whether due to malfunction, pilot error, or an error by the guys on the ground.

[rune]

Speaking as an ex-Navy flier, 5 meter accuracy is damn good for non-guidance weapons. For the F-15E, low level the accuracy averages about 25 meters. Here, i will quote:

All of the coefficients meet the standard test of statistical

significance (p-values less than 0.05 for their individual statistics),

but what does this regression analysis say about the

practical impact of instructor status and recent practice on average

visual bomb miss distance? First, the constant can be interpreted as

the average bomb miss distance – in meters – for a non-instructor who

has not dropped any practice bombs in the past 30 days. In this case it

is approximately 25 meters.

This also does NOT factor in things like crew fatigue, mechanical malfunctions, or other errors. This article deals with crews that were assigned to Saudi Arabia.

http://www.rand.org/pubs/rgs_dissertations/RGSD147/RGSD147.chap5.pdf

For other aircraft, the zones varied.

Rune

[akd]

A dumb bomb is still a dumb bomb. Even given a perfect release, not every bomb is identical and things can change before impact. 5 meters is like the difference between hitting my living room and hitting my bedroom with a 2000lb bomb, i.e. insignificant.

The Phase I weapon delivery system was remarkably successful. The equations of motion for the bombs were fairly complete, and most error sources were either modeled or mitigated. The primary accuracy limitation was the wind: Although wind speed and direction could be determined at the release point, the wind could change as the weapon fell. Another error source that was difficult to mitigate was the variability in the aerodynamics and mass properties of each bomb. The predicted impact point algorithm had to use average values because it would be impractical to enter the values of each bomb into the operational software. Nonetheless, the program was considered a great success.

As impressive as the GPS Phase I weapon delivery test results were, they made clear that accuracy would remain inherently limited unless some intelligence were placed in the bomb itself. The first attempt to make dumb bombs into "smart" guided weapons used an INS and associated fin-actuation system in a tail kit that replaced the normal tail section of the bomb. At the time, GPS receivers were too big to fit in a tail kit. It was thought that with proper initialization from the host vehicle, the bomb's INS could sustain navigation accuracy from the release time to impact. This strategy worked well as long as the launch vehicle had a GPS receiver to initialize the bomb's INS prior to release. Without a GPS receiver on the launch vehicle, the handoff errors were too great for precision bombing, simply because the host vehicle's INS would accrue errors that would be handed off to the weapon during ingress.

http://www.aero.org/publications/crosslink/summer2002/05.html

[rune]

Oh yeah, in comparison, lets look at the jdam.

The JDAM bombs can be released in day/night and adverse weather at up to 15 miles away from the selected target. The Pentagon claims that JDAM bomb accuracy is about 13 meters CEP (Circular Error Probable), but according to Boeing sources JDAM accuracy is 9.6 meters CEP. Without the GPS guidance system using only the INS guidance system JDAM accuracy is 30 meters.

9 meters for a guided weapon.

Rune

[redbear]

Originally posted by rune:

Speaking as an ex-Navy flier, 5 meter accuracy is damn good for non-guidance weapons. For the F-15E, low level the accuracy averages about 25 meters. Here, i will quote:

All of the coefficients meet the standard test of statistical

significance (p-values less than 0.05 for their individual statistics),

but what does this regression analysis say about the

practical impact of instructor status and recent practice on average

visual bomb miss distance? First, the constant can be interpreted as

the average bomb miss distance – in meters – for a non-instructor who

has not dropped any practice bombs in the past 30 days. In this case it

is approximately 25 meters.

This also does NOT factor in things like crew fatigue, mechanical malfunctions, or other errors. This article deals with crews that were assigned to Saudi Arabia.

http://www.rand.org/pubs/rgs_dissertations/RGSD147/RGSD147.chap5.pdf

For other aircraft, the zones varied.

Rune

thanks rune for the document any way i was not taking into consideration loaf bombing and the high drag munition but the document makes it clear for me. Any way i was making some bombing runs in the lockon A10 that is slower and it do not have the advance fly model so may be my confusion.

so that let us with just one thing the problem with the rocket of the Apache i could accept that there could be a dispersion on the target but no the rocket going all over the place. this trully need to be addressed.

[Flanker15]

Originally posted by redbear:

so that let us with just one thing the problem with the rocket of the Apache i could accept that there could be a dispersion on the target but no the rocket going all over the place. this trully need to be addressed.

See "Drunken Shotgun of the Gods" for more info!