To see or not to see

[poesel]

It seems to be slow days here in the forum so it might be apropiate to rehash some old discussions.

This is about sensor in- and output.

Current state: every vehicle sees only those enemy vehicles it has LOS to. Except for the command track which sees all vehicles that at least one friendly sees.

So it looks like all vehicles can create a one way communication channel TO the command track, but it can't send anything back. Like, say, the position of all enemy vehicles it knows about.

This makes no sense technolgy wise (since we can all chat with each other) - its probably a gameplay decision. When all vehicles are connected there is no surprise possible. The first contact will give you away.

So how can we make sense to that and still have an interesting game? From the background description we know that the air in DT is full of EM noise and its hard for sensors to find anything useful.

Lets imagine two things:

1) most of this noise is CREATED by a command track. It is specially designed to disrupt enemy communications. So if you are the only CT on the field you have no communication problems and all your friendlies get a live picture like the CT has now. Nothing more - if an enemy is hidden from all friendlies hes still not on your map.

2) if the enemy has a CT too, then communication rapidly detoriates. You have to resort to very slow communication models to get anything through. That means you still get the info from 1) on the tacmap but the updates will be slow and the information old (maybe those delays depend on the distance to your CT - that would stop players from hiding their CT far away in the mountains). It may take even minutes for information to get through the channels.

These two things would give a team good reasons to actually have a command track in its ranks and it should also be close to the middle of the action to shorten the delays. To hunt and kill enemy CTs would also be a worthwhile pastime.

[Toby Haynes]

I might refine this a little.

Each Command track has an effective radius for jamming and detection. The presence of an enemy command track would remove all command track info from friendly tanks within that effective radius. A bit like a mobile sensor jammer, but for tank-to-tank comms.

Or you could take this in a different direction. Command tracks can gather information from all tanks where the distance between the friendly command track is shorter than the distance to the enemy command track(s).

I can rationalise the one-way comms based on better sensor arrays. However, I think it would make for better game play if the presence of the command track meant that a team would have better sensor support.

[Alexander SquidLord Williams]

I think in this case, the simplest answer that works might be the best answer.

To that end, I'd suggest that as long as you have a CMD on the field, every element can see anything on the mini/tac that any other element can see, the CMD providing a battlefield net hub things can route through, scrub for bad info, and redeploy. The advantage of having a CMD is, thus, obvious, and it applies equally well to both sides. The advantage of taking out the enemy's CMD is likewise obvious, and its clear that its balanced in both directions.

Plus, its trivial to code.

Now, if I were dreaming of some kind of CMD extra advantage that you have when there's not a CMD on the other side, I might suggest that an unopposed CMD double the range of Sensors and Sensor Jammers on their side, so the bloody things actually appear to have more than marginal use.

The problem I have with a lot of the "undifferentiated jamming" verbiage in the DT backstory is that jamming is loud ... by design. If the CMD is cranking out even an appreciable portion of that static, it should glow brighter than a Bacchus in your back yard. So, I'm thinking the CMD is pointedly not a jamming platform; it tries to be as unobstrusive as possible while acting in the C&C role, marshalling the network, and being generally facilliative of other units' effectiveness.

(Semi-related, I'd really like to see Platoons of no more than five elements automatically share sensor data when within a couple km of each other. This means you can have mortars being spotted for by attached infantry without too much coding, as well as coordinated shoot-and-scoot along ridges and gullies.)

[Jalinth]

Heck even LOS sharing of targeting info would be handy. Think data links via Comm Lasers.

[Alexander SquidLord Williams]

Originally posted by Jalinth:

Heck even LOS sharing of targeting info would be handy. Think data links via Comm Lasers.

I'd certainly think this would be more than reasonable. There are too many LoS comm methods that simply can't be jammed with any reasonable sense. That any friendly in LoS forwards their sensor grid is perfectly reasonable. In that case, the CMD takes on the role of data scrubber and forwarder between non-LoS friendlies, which is a perfectly helpful role.

[cool breeze]

I vote for this big but it scares me so I want a distance limit on LOS contact spotters. I suggest 2km. Ide also have say .5-1km non LOS sensor sharing... maybe. Cant wait to start playing again!~! Thanks!!

[__Yossarian0815[jby]]

Originally posted by Alexander SquidLord Williams:

[QB] I think in this case, the simplest answer that works might be the best answer.

To that end, I'd suggest that as long as you have a CMD on the field, every element can see anything on the mini/tac that any other element can see, the CMD providing a battlefield net hub things can route through, scrub for bad info, and redeploy. The advantage of having a CMD is, thus, obvious, and it applies equally well to both sides. The advantage of taking out the enemy's CMD is likewise obvious, and its clear that its balanced in both directions.

Good idea!

Afterthought: bot-Mercury should not be allowed hmm, i dunno if it is allowed now btw...

or the "see all" would only work if the Mercury is crewed by a team commander

[Alexander SquidLord Williams]

Originally posted by __Yossarian0815[jby]:

Good idea!

Afterthought: bot-Mercury should not be allowed hmm, i dunno if it is allowed now btw...

or the "see all" would only work if the Mercury is crewed by a team commander [/QB]

I don't see any reason not to have a Bot CMD. In a small engagement with only a few folks on each side, its perfectly reasonable to switch elements with a bot while the artillery is recharging if the other things are going fine. That doesn't increase their effectiveness; bots don't hide well.

If the CMD is on the field, it should be functioning. To do otherwise penalizes the side with fewer people even if their orchestration is superior. That leads to bad design.

[ClaytoniousRex]

This is a really good idea and it gives the cmd track more direct relevance than it has now. Toby's "whichever is closest" rule works really well for a first pass. LOS sharing could then be added pretty easily afterward.

[Caseck]

I like the battlefield laser coms idea.

Units that share line of sight to each other, can share their line of sight... Simple.