Ion's a real killer

[B0nes]

Used the Ion Thor a fair bit tonight. Defo the most effective platform I've used. Really racked up the kills.

In one game me and Crimson were double-teaming with Ions on targets. They didn't last long. We racked up 37 kills between us (a lot were deployables). At long range they are invulnerable to all accept ATGM's. They can't be intercepted by AAD.

Disadvantage: If someone fast gets close to you then you're in trouble. Also a bit boring and easy to use. I probably annoyed the hell out of people camping on a hill and sniping away.

I got a bit disillusioned with the Apollo 120. I was pumping rounds at close range into Paladins and they were soaking them up and dishing it out to me. An AP round at close range should gut them.

[dan/california]

I really feel that 120 mm lethality needs to be increased for both heat and AP, antyhing but a thor should just die. The reload time is so long you should be rewarded for getting rounds on target.

You left out the ultimate refinement of ion camping. Which is to bring a Hermes along.

If you don't bring a hermes along and the other team has it together they will drop something right on top of you.

While I am rambling, a hermes and an infantry squad or two are extremely effective together. In fact teaming infantry squads with any other vehicle makes close assaults infinitely more deadly. It really increases the importance of teamwork in the game, which is a good thing.

[ August 06, 2006, 07:19 PM: Message edited by: dan/california ]

[yurch]

I like how you guys can manage to work in a 120mm-is-too-weak comment when talking about the ion.

I understand it and it's uses, but the ion is simply too tedious for me to use on a regular basis.

Certainly looking forward to those new ion physics.

[bjarmson]

Yeah ions are pansys. I ignore ions to kill 20mms first, when I have a choice. Out of the 1000s of times I've been killed, probably less than 50 (maybe much less) are the direct result of ions. I think they're a pretty useless weapon. What does need improving is the kill ability of 120mms. I'm tired of having to hit Paladins, Shrikes, and Apollos several times at less than 1000m to kill them. In fact, it seems the kill ability at point blank range is often worse than at 1000/2000 meters. What gives? If I hit one of these AFVs at 100/200 meters with a 120mm (shot centered in the side or front/back), it ought to kill 95-99% of the time (it seems like less than 50%). They often return fire after having been hit (I can physically see the hit), sometimes after several hits. How can this be possible? Except against Thors, the 120mm has to be designed as a one hit kill weapon, otherwise it makes no sense. It takes too long to reload and carries too few rounds. If this is not the case, then the design is flawed and has to be fixed. I mean c'mon, the shells are almost 5 inches in diameter, a hit anywhere to the center of any light or medium armor AFV should shred or incinerate their insides.

What I'd really like in an AFV is a quicker medium tank with something like the German high velocity 88mm (sort of a Space Viking's late model Panther), which could kill anything on the battlefield at range and not plod around like a Tiger/Thor. Where the hell are the design guys/AIs on the liveships. May be time to put them up against the wall and try some new people.

[Jalinth]

This Thread might help you if you are having troubles killing things with the 120. What you have to remember is that sending a 120mm shot clear through a tank does little. You have to actually hit something valuable to do something, and some vees have a LOT of empty space. With the Shrikes and Paladins, the empty space is room for 5 infantrymen. Making a hole in that is not going to hurt the performance of the vehicle.

[bjarmson]

It's not that I'm having trouble killing things (I get lots of one shot kills, even against Thors). What I'm complaining about is having to hit a Paladin, etc, 2, 3, or sometimes more at close range for it to die. A 120mm round hitting the center part of any of these AFVs has to hit something sensitive almost by necessity, even the shock from a round this size hitting the vehicle should incapacitate the occupants for a certain amount of time. We're not shooting at empty truck trailors here, but vehicles full of hydraulics, electronics, etc, etc. The chances of not hitting something vital (what with the hot spray of molten metal, flying schrapnel, etc) is probably similar to being hit with a bullet in your center area and having it go clear through without hitting anything vital. If these AFVs are mostly empty space with nothing vital inside, then the AFV should be reduced in size because it has irrelevant space (except the personnel carriers of course). Okay, the occasional 120mm AT round might miss anything vital (the other 5% of the 95% kill ratio mentioned), but a 120mm HEAT round should incinerate the insides of any Palladin, Shrike, or Apollo at close range. If it doesn't the weapons system is flawed and needs redesigning.

My problem is that some of these AFVs are harder to kill at virtual point blank range than they are at 1000m. That should not happen.

[dan/california]

With the exception of the regular paladin, which has bay for infantry, if their was empty space in a vehicle it would be smaller instead. A lower volume lets the same weight of armor give you more protection. That is why all real life AFVs are claustrophobic. More room is more of a chance of dying.

[B0nes]

Yep. Agree with you about the 120mm. I was in a close range duel with a Paladin ATGM (bot controlled). I got the first shot in. No visible result. While waiting for the 120 to reload he takes me out. I dropped twice more with the same result. Each time I was aiming for the battery or low centre of mass.

So I lost 3 Apollo 120's trying to take out that Paladin. 4th time I dropped someone else had put it out of my misery!

Someone is going to say that I should engage at range using the Apollo 120mm. At range AP's lose their power due to air resistance. Trying to hit a speeding Paladin at a distance with a HEAT round requires a bit of luck/fancy gunnery.

BJ, try the Thor Ion. It takes out deployables with a couple of hits. The gunnery view can be zoomed in 4x. I've taken out several Thor 120mm's defending an objective. Takes a little while though. It is a bit boring to use however.

[yurch]

One thing I think is wrong is that the occupants of the vehicles are practically immortal.

The 'subsystem' that contains the driver/gunner has a 50 point strength, same as the Thor battery, but is almost half the size. Infantry outside the vehicle have a single hitpoint.

The center of most combat vehicles has a lot of space dedicated to the crew:

With our vehicles, you can't even harm the gunner with a chassis hit.

[poesel]

B0nes, sometimes a weapon is just not working for someone. I've totally given up on the hurricane and anything ATGM. They don't work for me.

The Ion is mostly a weapon of suppression and a killer of deployables. Normally someone getting hit by Ion drives into cover before you can kill him. Bots are different of course. They are sometimes totally ignorant while you keep burning them. Bit strange.

Its also a good team weapon since you can seriously soften up armour for others to shoot through.

A Ion Thor far away but with good open field is very dangerous, because he can hit while having a great staying power. But there is ATGM and that has long range too

[bboyle]

I love the ion against Shrike-happy opponents. My exerience is that it burns up the annoying little bastards in no time. But sitting for ten minutes searing the front of a Paladin just to kill it doesn't do much for me.

[ClaytoniousRex]

The reason for the high strength of the crew components is not that the crew themselves are so tough. It's that the crew are inside of sealed, armored crew compartments full of acceleration jelly (most of the interior of the vehicle is not pressurized). Once the armored compartment is breached at all, the crew is considered dead.

The main problem with them, though, is that they're currently too small - sometimes *way* too small.

[yurch]

Doh, and I had just posted the other thread.

Even then, it's probably a bit easier to breach them then that - The AP round is going through it to hit the subsystems behind.

[bjarmson]

I don't have any trouble with the crew being compressed in small self-contained survival pods (or whatever). It's the far future, right. What I'm beginning to have more and more trouble with is the design of the AFVs themselves. Some of the units are designed so badly, no soldier would be willing to use it on the battlefield.

The Shrike sits far to high and has a terrible center of gravity, it needs a complete redesign. The Hurricane should have a Thor chassis, not that ludicrous hovercraft thing. As it is it's almost impossible to control, has difficulty climbing almost any hill, and, worst of all, flips itself over when fired from virtually any direction except 90 degrees front or back, unless you make it sit on the ground. Anyone who isn't a total lunatic would refuse to be in anything so inherently unusable in a combat situation. Yet its weapon system has some great uses. The Apollos, though very useful, could benefit from a wider tread (to improve their instability on slopes) and a flatter profile (to make them harder to hit). The Paladins, well would you design a combat vehicle that looks like an armored Dodge Caravan. Probably not.

We need vehicles with much greater survivablity. As it is virtually all AFVs die within seconds (minutes at the outside) of dropping (if they don't get killed along with their dropships, but that's another matter).