At least a Tank-Sim again!!

[Delor]

By a fluke i discovered your Site and read about your upcoming Tank-Sim-Projevt "T-72: Balkans on Fire!"

First of all, besides any proposals, i want to thank you for developing a Tank-Sim. The Simulation-Genre is falling off the other Genres only cause many Player's aren't able to remember more then 5 Keys to press! The Balkans-Scenario offers many Stuff for new Sim-Ideas, but most of them are always going the same Way --> beat those "dangerous" Serbs ...

I read almost every single Information about this Sim, and there are still two Questions open i wan't to ask:

1st - If the Scenario plays on the Balkans, then where ist the M-84??? (Serb. Variant of the T-72)

I read many Articels about this M-84 (A/B) and it seems to be one of the best Variants of the T-72 ever built. Smaller Engine with more Strength (about 1000hp), better Firecontrols and Weathersensors, broader Chains which reults in a faster and more mobile Movement, enhanced/improved Armor and other Improvements.

And as it is Serbias Main Battle-Tank i wonder why this Tank's not simulated in the Game?

2nd - Did you thought about dynamic Campaign??

One of the Reasons why Simulations lost so many "Ground" is often the short Playtime or Replay-Value!

Lock On - in my Eyes one of the best Flight-Sims since the Falcon-Series - had the same Problem. There were "Campaigns" about 4-5 Missions long. There were no dynamic, no Real-Battle-Feeling, even no Scripted Happenings. The Result was, that the Community had to make Campaigns by itself but that is NOT the sense of a Game! A good Editor is just a nice Bonus!

Look at Silent Hunter III! Just a few simple Changes, made this Sim much more succesfull, then expected for a Sim released at these days. A little bit Crew-Managment, a few earned Points giving the Player the Opportunity to "buy" better Stuff, Machines, Guns, Ammo etc., Crew-Members which become better as the Career goes on. I don't think that things like that are so hard to involve in a Game, but it raises the Joy and Replay-Factor many times ...

Maybe these Examples are not 1:1 usable for a Tank-Sim but don't you think that 18 Straight-Missions are'nt just a little bit too little??

In my point of view, "T-72: Balkans on Fire!" is a Game pointed to be sold to so called "hardcore-simmers" and not for the broad Balla-Balla-Mass (Balla-Balla = Ego-Shooter-Player *gg*). I'm sure that every single Player who remember Games like M1 Tank Platoon 2 or Panzer Elite, will finish these 18 Missions real soon and what then? An 9-Mission-Addon for another $ 30,--?

For me "T-72: BoF" is a "Must-Have" .. no Question about it!!

But i can tell you, that i am ready to wait a little bit longer AND ... i am ready to pay also € 50,-- (Euros, not Dollars!) for the main Game an maybe another € 50,-- one Year later for a good Addon, but knowing that i'm purchasing a Sim with some kind of "there's a real Conflict on my Monitor-Feeling", dynamic Campaigns and/or Reward/Management-System!

But besides that, these game looks more then great and i am sure, that i will buy it as soon as possible!

ps.: Sorry for my bad English and spelling failures ...

[Moon]

1st - If the Scenario plays on the Balkans, then where ist the M-84??? (Serb. Variant of the T-72)

Unfortunately I cannot comment on the choice of vehicles in the game. The devs had their reasons, no doubt.

2nd - Did you thought about dynamic Campaign??

Sure, but it's a different thing to make a dynamic campaign for a tactical ground game like T72 than for a naval "patrol" like game like SH3. At least if you expect to make sense out of the missions and tactical challenges you expect to face for your tank.

A little bit Crew-Managment, a few earned Points giving the Player the Opportunity to "buy" better Stuff, Machines, Guns, Ammo etc., Crew-Members which become better as the Career goes on. I don't think that things like that are so hard to involve in a Game, but it raises the Joy and Replay-Factor many times ...

Then you'll be happy to hear that there is a career mode in the game which will let you (and your crew) gain experience, and you will obtain new equipment as well (e.g. you start off with the T34-85, then move to the T55 before finally getting the T72, which then in turn can be equipped with various modifications, like a digging blade, additional armor and so on.

Maybe these Examples are not 1:1 usable for a Tank-Sim but don't you think that 18 Straight-Missions are'nt just a little bit too little??

Nope, because they're not straight (there are random elements), and because there are a total of nearly 30 missions (not only the 18 campaign missions), and because with the editor, you can make a gazillion more Many FPS games have fewer missions, by the way, and no editor to let users create more. And it's not possible to compare straight numbers, either - some missions may take a long time to complete them.

I'm sure that every single Player who remember Games like M1 Tank Platoon 2 or Panzer Elite, will finish these 18 Missions real soon and what then? An 9-Mission-Addon for another $ 30,--?

No - then you download a user created map/mission/campaign; or make one yourself.

Martin

[Pandur]

hi

@delor

please, explain your sig to me

iam really interested, cous i was in the same army for 8month

[Delor]

To Martin:

Thank you for your fast response and i'm really snoopy about this new Tank-Sim ... especially about the Editor, which makes a lot of Sense.

Is it possible to make also Campaigns with the Editor or only Scenarios?

ps. SH3 was just an example. But M1 Tank Platoon 2 had something like so called "Half-Dynamic-Campaigns". Panzer Elite was straight, but there were many Missions and the Crew- and Tankmanagent made a lot of Fun ... but i always prefered russian Tanks

pss.: I would pay $ 30,-- for a good 9-Mission-Addon too - but don't tell it the "others"

[Delor]

Originally posted by Pandur:

hi

@delor

please, explain your sig to me

iam really interested, cous i was in the same army for 8month

Hi ...

i served for 8 Months at the Heavy-Platoon (Kompanie, Ceta) of an Infantry-Regiment north of Vienna. Or better said "Hunter-Regiment", cause there is no real Infantry in Austria, cause Austrias Army is to small and her Doctrins are'nt built up on massive Infantry Assaults, but more on small, point-defending Units ... the so called "Hunters".

The modern Hunters are a real Austro-German "Invention" based on the Short-War-Doctrines (Blitzkrieg) of WW2. That's why you can't found Units like that in other Countrys. In Yugoslavia for example (were i am from ...) Units like austrian Hunters are more organized in Formation which have special Tasks.

I had a short, but very hard, training on almost every single heavy Weapon available for austrian Soldiers.

There were the normal Steyr-Aug (Stg 77) Rifle, Grenades, Pistols, Steyr MG74 Machine Guns, One-Use-RPG's (Panzerfaust), Multi-Use-RPG's, Heavy Machine Guns (12.6mm), Heavy Aiming Rifles (12.6mm, used for marking armored Targets before the real Gun-Shot), Magnetic-Anti-Tank-Mines, Normal Mines (Cause we had a 3-Week Engineer-Training to (Pioneer)) and the main Anti-Tank-Weapons,

- The 105mm Backstroke-free Anti-Tank-Gun (r-PAK)

which is an old AT-Weapon built in the 50's in the USA for first use in the Korea-War. It's effective against armored Vehicles and Battle Tanks like M-60, T-55 or T-62/64 up to 800m. But when facing an T-72 or better it's better too run, cause only a direct Hit in the Rear-Side would (maybe!!) help. Shooting-Tests with an old and Out-Of-Service (Croat Captured) M-84 showed, that a Leopard-Arrow-Grenade (Pfeilgeshoss, like SABOT) stuck after a penetrating about 50% Centimeters of the Front-Armor. Now you can imagine the Effect of the much older r-PAK-Grenade (HEAT) ...

- The PAL-Bill 2000, a swedish Anti-Tank-ATGM with Wire-SACLOS-Steering by Infrared (Heat)-Aiming. The Missile is a 150mm HEAT-Projectile with an max. Range up to 2.200 Meters. (Range for effective use is only about 1.200 Meters)

It was really hard (especially marching 110km with about 30 Kilos on your Back ) but like every Army it was an amazing experience when looking back to that time (i served 1994/95)

Where have you been? Which Troop-Class?

And ... why am i writing English, Deutsch wäre doch viel einfacher, oder???

[Pandur]

lol

deutsch IST einfacher zumindest für mich

egal...

ich war in Bruckneudorf, bei einer Panzerpionier-kompanie. später umbennant auf Pionierkompanie(gep)-> PiKp(gep) unterstellt dem Stabsbattailon 1 in eisenstadt.

ehrlich gesagt war ich froh das ich nicht zu einer Jäger-kompanie gekommen bin(*schind**schleif*), aber "meine" PiKp(gep) war um nix besser...

ausser das wir nicht soviel zufuß unterwegs waren, da unser kompanie-kommandant gemeint hat: wia san kane jaga, mia foan mitn LKW oder poanza!

wasserfahrtsausbildung(in hainburg) war spassig! 3 tage rudern wie die whansinigen! war wirklich anstrengend kan ich dir sagen; man muss zwar nicht mit gepäck herumhatschen, aber rudern in dem ausmaß ist auch net übel

leider hab ich, nur ausbildung auf Stg77, Mg74, CarlGustav-Par, handgranaten( ), und .50Mg.

da fehlt mir doch etwas, im gegensatz zu deiner allround ausbildung

aber alles in allem, bin ich froh beim heer gewesen zu sein! sind tolle eindrücke und erinnerungen geblieben! auch wenns damals nicht immer angenehm war.

bevor ich vergesse, ich war von mai2000 bis jänner2001.

grüsse

@Madmatt or Moon

if its not ok, to make german-only posts, so tell me! i will translate it, so everyone can read it

bad TRANSLATION:

i served in "Bruckneudorf", with an Pioneer?/engeneer?-company(armored*)

*you know; verry little and old Austrian-made APC called saurer and Pi-Tank Greif

lets say it; i was kind of happy, that i wasnt ordered to an "jäger"(hunter) unit, but "my" PiCp(Arm) wasnt better...

[next 2 senteces cancled becouse of a lack in english therms ]

unfortunately, iam only trained at Stg77, Mg74, carl gustav, handgranades and .50Mg.(M2 Browning)

you got an better allround-training

in the end, iam happy about the fact that i was in the army. it was a expirience, that noone should miss.

[ June 08, 2005, 05:27 AM: Message edited by: Pandur ]

[Moon]

Is it possible to make also Campaigns with the Editor or only Scenarios?

You can also make campaigns, although it's not as simple as making a mission (you need to adjust a couple of scripts to "import" a new campaign).

pss.: I would pay $ 30,-- for a good 9-Mission-Addon too - but don't tell it the "others"

I won't if you don't tell the others that we're planning a 20-map pack with hopefully full online multiplayer support and perhaps a new playable tank for later this year for less than $30

Martin

[Moon]

Pandur, es ist ok in Deutsch zu schreiben, aber es wäre besser, wenn du eine Übersetzung mit dran hängst (obwohl viele hier Deutsch sprechen und verstehen - ich selbst lebe in Süddeutschland).

Martin

[Thomm]

So, Delor, does:

"(I was a !!) Tank-Hunter in the Austrian Army, although i am NOT Austrian!"

mean that you are not an Austrian citizen, and yet you had to serve in the Austrian army?!?

Puzzled,

Thomm

[Delor]

@Rollstoy

Zitat "mean that you are not an Austrian citizen, and yet you had to serve in the Austrian army?!?"

Yes, your're right! My words were really a little bit confusing.

I wanted to say, that i am not an "ethnical" Austrian. I was born in Austria, but my Parents are'nt real Austrians so neither am i.

I have the Austrian citizenship and i served in this Army.

But i think that there's no need to explain, that a little bit more is needen for a man to feel as a real Citizen of a Country, than just a nice Paper were it stands on ...

[Delor]

@Pandur

Na dann sag ich mal "Hallo Kamerad" *ggg*

Ja, die Zeit beim Heer war wirklich hart und spätestens nach dem 70. Kilometer des 110 Kilometer-Marsches kotze es mich auch an --- aber ich nachinein muß ich zugeben, daß es eine gute Erfahrung war. Nie wieder in meinem Leben werde ich mich so gesund fühlen, so gut schlafen und so sehr an meine (wahren!) Grenzen gebracht werden!

Na ja .. eigentlich hätten es ja nur 100 KM Marsch werden sollen, aber unser Korporal war zu doof zum Karte lesen, also gingen wir 5 km in die falsche Richtung.

Das härteste waren aber immer die sog. Highlights des Tages auf diesem Marsch und einige dieser Highlights machen das Heer ja so interessant, weil man im Zivilleben nie die Möglichkeit dazu hätte.

Jetzt mal im ernst, wann kann man denn schon im normalen Leben einen fast 100 Meter hohen Staudamm "runterlaufen", über einen "Bärenhang" hangeln oder sich mit an einem Stahlseil über eine Schlucht runtersausen lassen (am Seil hing so ein Rad an welches man sich hängte) ... *gg*

Wir hatten auch eine Pionierkompanie, bei denen durften wir so eine Pionier-Schnell-Schnupperausbildung machen. War aber total ****, weil man stundenlang im Schnee stand, Minen legte, Karten malte und dann das ganze wieder räumen mußte. Da stelle ich mir Euren Ruderausflug wenigstens etwas lustiger vor *gg*

Das geilste waren aber sicher die Ausflüge mit dem Hubschrauber und die Panzerfahrten. Da wir ja Panzerjäger waren, waren wir des öftern in Zwölfaxing (bei Schwechat), wo wir üben mußten. Die wollten damals nämlich so eine Art Übungssimulator für die PAK's von den Briten kaufen und da durften wir den ganzen lieben Tag mit unseren rPAK's auf M60A3 ballern (Simulationsmäßig natürlich ).

Obwohl ... man muß schon ziemlich schlecht sein um einen M60A3 zu verfehlen. Das Gerät ist sogar für einen Panzer riesig und wenn er vor einem anrollt, dann geht's Dir echt anders ...

Das schlimmste aber sind diese Haftminen-Übungen.

Da ist ein Loch in das man gerade noch reinpasst und der Panzer fährt rüber und wenn er vorbei ist, dann springt man rauß und bringt am Heck eine Haftmine an. Beim Heer waren diese Löche betoniert, aber in real müßte man die selbst ausbuddeln .. also ich sage Dir, daß ist ein echtes Sch...-Gefühl. Der Panzer braucht nur eine Drehung machen und man ist lebendig begraben

Aber die Fahrt mit dem M60 war richtig toll. Wir waren zwar alle grün und blau aber es war der Hammer. Alles Rattert und es haut einen wie wild herum ... und ich Koffer meinte auch noch auf dem Turm sitzen zu müssen (mit den Beinen durch die zweite Turmluke) ... tja, daß war ein Fehler ...

Du bist an der Carl-Gustav ausgebildet worden? Meinst Du nicht die PAR-64??? Ich wußte gar nicht das Österreich die Carl-Gustav besitzt????

Obwohl ... ich war ja 94/95 beim Heer und die alte r-PAK mit ihren 105mm wurde ja einige Jahre später ausgemustert. Gut möglich das die Carl-Gustav als günstige Alternative angeschaffen wrude.

Grüße!