East Front - Expansion

[Zanadu]

One agreement, one not.

I agree about the Battle and the Douglas TBD (I think that's what you meant, not the Grumman TBF that replaced it starting in June '42). These were very advanced a/c when they were introduced. Trouble was that they went into combat after they had become obsolencent (to be polite) and in terrible tactical situations becasue there was NOTHING else available at the time. Predictable results.

Comparing the I16 and LaGG1 to horses and tanks is not accurate. Both were retractable landing gear monoplaces. Different models of 'tank'. I've never heard of pilots refusing a newer a/c if they thought it was an improvement. There's the rub. The LaGG1 wasn't seen as an improvement over the I16. The production a/c weren't any faster even before the canopys were removed, and any maneuverability advantage was largely negated by the handling problems. That made it a matter of "the devil you know ..."

Did US P39 pilots in the SW Pacific turn down those nasty new P38s to stay with their trusty Airacobras?? Did the Marines in the Solomons insist that the Wildcat was good enough, and they didn't want those ugly Corsairs?? Not hardly!! When the pilots think the new a/c is better, you can't keep 'em away.

[Sixxkiller]

The Corsair was a beautiful plane. Maybe my pick for second prettiest behind the MC 2005 (shameless attempt to get it modeled soon) Also i may add the Ki-84 was BEAUTIFUL (another shameless attempt to get it modeled.)

And there is no way the Corsair pilots could have flown P-38's anyway as the Marines didnt get them issued.

-Ray

[Guest Mike]

Yeah the TBD Devastator sorry.

LaGG 3's were not as fast as units had been lead to believe - but as I said earleir on much of that was down to pilot ignorance - 10km/hr from flying with throttles full and air intakes full open. Certainly canopy visibility was an issue - but that was a problem with Soviet industry at the time - not the aircraft per se. Having the canopy open cost another 20-25km/hr, while the thick camoflage paint applied after Barbarossa cost them yet another 10km/hr.

Early aircraft were also poorley finished - with panels not fitting flush and poor surface finishes - this further reduced the performance but was not an inherent fault with the a/c.

I also note that the early LaGG's were found to make fine ground attack a/c as they could absorb considerable punishment with a 23mm cannon often replacing the 20mm - how come that's OK for hte Typhoon bytut not for the LaGG?

I think hte LaGG was not a great aircraft, but I don't think it deserves being in any lsit of hte worst in the world.

[Kindred]

Originally posted by Sixxkiller:

Yes Mr Stalin. Those write ups were mine and i used quite a few sources to do it. I think you just got lost in the kiwi to yankees translation. But we will spare you being grounded as you help me work on the secret stuff! Dont tell kindred though. (He thinks I tease him too much cause we arent allowed to tell players in Portugal any secret information).

Oh and kindred, the Bomber Command 41 campaign is going to be released soon. You can blame Dan for it not coming out sooner! If you can get him fired, Portugese players will have much more information than at present!!! Only bad thing is you will have to do the animations as Dan will tell you, even my curved lines i draw on a map are not meant for public consumption.

-Ray

i will try to unite all portuguese players ( i think we are 2) and will try to get Dan fired.

Then we will have new campaighs every day and rule the world.....(insert evil laugh)

Pedro

[Zanadu]

No, I said the Marines traded Wildcats for Corsairs. Army P39 pilots went into the P38s.

[Zanadu]

In the air, the Corsair looks great. The controls are so well balanced that it seems to be impossible to make the a/c do anything that doesn't look graceful.

On the ground, however, the fuselage looks like a distorted baseball bat with bent wings and a tail put on as an afterthougt. It was one of the most totally goal-driven designs ever produced, without concern for appearance. Everything about it was dictated by the engineering consdierations, without a hint of the "if it looks good it'll fly good" philosophy.

[Zanadu]

I will grant that the one really good point about the LaGGs were that they prouced a very rugged airframe at a remarkably low weight.

The problem with comparing the LaGG with the Typhoon is that the Tiffy (once they put the reinforcements on it) still had bad features, but they didn't involve the things that you actually did in combat. Once you got it into the air and above 100mph, you were in business. The LaGGs handling problems involved exactly the things you needed to do in combat -- rapid changes in a/c attitude.

[Guest Mike]

Which are much less important in ground attack and could be alleviated by flying with 10-15 degrees flap in combat.

The Tiffies probnlem of losing it's rear fuselage in a high speed dive was distinctly above 100 mph!!

[Zanadu]

Yes, as I said, the Tiffy had external reinforcement plates added around the rear fuselage. That worked, but it was later learned that the problem wasn't a structural weakness, but a metal fatigue issue.

The LaGG3 became the most numerous Sov. ftr. becasuse they didn't really have anything better. Except that it was faster, the MiG was more of the same. In wartime, some really bad a/c end up used in combat because they fill some need in spite of serious problems, and the casualties that went with them. Look at the MkXII Spitfire, for example.

[Guest Mike]

It wasn't metal fatigue so much as supersonic compressability!!

however I digress - I've found notes by modern pilots who fly the I-153 and I-16 - both types have been restored and are operated out of Wanaka, New Zealand.

There's info on them and other a/c at http://www.nzfpm.co.nz/aircraft/aircraft.htm, including "Flying the..." pages for both Russian a/c in their own sections.

note that the pilot finds the I-153 quite unstable in flight and notes that it falls easily into a stall - in fact having a significant wing drop seems to be a charachteristic of the 3 russian a/c in this collection (ther other was a Yak-3 now sold off)

However both the I-16 and I-153 are found to be manouvreable and lovely to fly, with relatively minor quirks and vices!

[ March 12, 2006, 02:46 PM: Message edited by: Stalin's Organist ]

[musgrove]

very cool! looking forward to it! (expansion pack that is)

[Sixxkiller]

And you guys are so fixated on the planes when you havent even seen the new skills yet! A few will make your jaw drop.

There is the one where you get.......... oops sworn to secrecy, have to buy the expansion to see all the new goodies!

-Ray

[Guest Mike]

How could be be fixated on anything except the planes you drongo - no-one knows what the extra skills are yet

[Sixxkiller]

Well you do you silly kiwi.

-Ray

[Guest Mike]

Yeah but I'm not like you - I don't have conversatoins with myself!!

[Sixxkiller]

Yes, even YOU dont want to hear yourself speak, you communist loving grouch!

-Ray

[Guest Mike]

Better than being in love with the sound of my own voice you neckless yak!!

[bartbert]

Another aircraft from the upcoming expansion pack:

Real World Data

Name: F6F Hellcat

Nation: USA

Manufacturer: Grumman

Type: Fighter

Number of Engines: 1

Horsepower: 2000

Weight: Empty-9101 lb Max- 15,487 lb

Max Speed: 375 mph

Number of Guns: 6 .5 in. Machine guns, with up to 1000 lb of bombs

Crew: 1

Year Introduced: 1943

The most successful fighter of the Pacific, it shot down 5156 Japanese planes to a loss of only 270 of its own in air combat. In effect an enlarged F4F, with larger engine and more streamlined, its first prototype was flown in 1942.

Entering combat in 1943, it exhibited a great balance of firepower, preformance, great strength, and decent agility. Around 250 were transferred to the UK under lend lease.

[Zanadu]

To SixxKiller: You commented on the Nakajima Ki84 earlier. The cover article of the new issue of AVIATION HISTORY magazine is on the HAYATE. It includes the best description I've seen of the combat in which Tommy McGuire was killed.

Author states that the Ki84 was an even better design than it's record indicated. It was badly handicapped by poor quality control in manufacturing, shortage of qualified mechanics for proper maintainence, and declining quality of Japanese aviation fuel.

[Frenchy]

Originally posted by Zanadu:

To SixxKiller: You commented on the Nakajima Ki84 earlier. The cover article of the new issue of AVIATION HISTORY magazine is on the HAYATE. It includes the best description I've seen of the combat in which Tommy McGuire was killed.

Author states that the Ki84 was an even better design than it's record indicated. It was badly handicapped by poor quality control in manufacturing, shortage of qualified mechanics for proper maintainence, and declining quality of Japanese aviation fuel.

Not to mention declining pilot quality...

[Zanadu]

True, although the early units of Ki-84s were made up of picked veteran pilots.

Anyway, in DiF, pilot quality is something you can do something about.

[Sixxkiller]

Thanks, I will look for this issue.

-Ray

Originally posted by Zanadu:

To SixxKiller: You commented on the Nakajima Ki84 earlier. The cover article of the new issue of AVIATION HISTORY magazine is on the HAYATE. It includes the best description I've seen of the combat in which Tommy McGuire was killed.

Author states that the Ki84 was an even better design than it's record indicated. It was badly handicapped by poor quality control in manufacturing, shortage of qualified mechanics for proper maintainence, and declining quality of Japanese aviation fuel.

[Zanadu]

To Stalin Ref Tiffy's tail structure failures. You thought it was compressibility. I can't agree. The Typhoon rarely flew high enough to have problems with compressibility in a dive.

The original prototype was modified almost at once with a larger tail fin due to lateral stability problems, but the fuselage was not re stressed. This soon led to a structural failure of the skin behind the cockpit, with the test pilot awarded the George Cross for landing the a/c safely. Testing was hard as the Sabre engine had to be overhauled every ten hours of operation.

The first two squadrons were assigned almost exclusively to hunting low lever FW190 ftr-bomber intruder strikes, and of the first 142 a/c delivered, 135 suffered either engine or structural failure resulting in serious damage or loss of a/c. At that point, the Sabre still had to be overhauled every 25 operating hours, and appearantly, most of them didn't get that far.

[Guest Mike]

You may be right that it was structural weakness - but height has nothing to do with compressability.

Compressability is solely a function of the speed of the airflow. Airflow accelerates when it is forced to deviate around structures - that's the bernoulli principle and is what gives us lift - the pressure differential between the slow air on the bottom side of the aerofoil and the faster air over the curved top side.

Given enough initial speed and enough deviation the airflow can become supersonic even though the aircraft is nowhere near supersonic speeds. this is accompanied by massive increases in localised drag, sometimes by an unfortunate chacacteristic called "control reversal", and vibration, unless the airframe is designed for it.

Diving at low level is perfectly capable of producing a supersonic shockwave over an airframe.

[Zanadu]

In theory true, but for WW2 a/c, not so.

Compressibility was also a factor of air density. At low levels, period a/c could not go fast enough, even in a dive to be effected. The early rule for dealing with the effect, when encountered was to continue to try and pull out, throttle back, and wait until you go down into denser air and control would be regained.

Conpressibiltiy was encountered at anywhere from about .67 to .8 of Mach for ww2 a/c. The big problem was 'tuck'. Mach shock waves from the wings, striking the tail would put an uncontrollable upward force on the surfaces. Some Mustangs ripped off their own tails that way. At least 3 times, P38 pilots actually escaped by 'outside looping' back into level flight, inverted (consider the structural stress of doing that) when they couldn't pull up.

Anyway, as air density increased, the speed of Mach increased. Dive recovery flaps were finally installed in P38s and P47s providing enough 'lift' from air deflection to allow pull out. Pilots in the MTO and Pacific didn't use them much as they rarely operated at the higher altitudes where the problem was encountered.