Pacific War Extension Scenario Idea

[Edwin P.]

From the Country List posted by HC it appears that there are at least 7 countries not needed in the European Theater that could be assigned to a Pacific War Extension of the SC2 Map.

The concept is:

1. Add a Pacific Extension to the Sc2 Europe Map

2. Seperate it from Western Europe by impassible Terrain to make it accesible only by transit tiles that take 4+ turns to reach the other map area.

3. Include in the Pacific Extension - Japan (allied to Axis), China (allied to US), Manchuko (occupied by Japan), IndoChina (French Controlled), Malaysia (Controlled by the UK), Thailand and Australia (Allied to UK).

To accomplish this the following countries are not used in Europe: Republican Spain, Luxemburg, Estonia, Lithuania, Saudi Arabia, and Tunisia (controlled by France) and...?

Using the AI parameters, Japan could be set to Attack Siberia if Russian strength drops below X by a specific date. Thus Russia could withdraw units from Siberia at the risk of inviting an Attack by the Japanese AI, and knowing that it would take quite some time to send reinforcements back to Siberia, as there are no Russian production centers on this portion of the map.

[ February 13, 2006, 11:19 AM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[Lars]

Wonder if you could some how tweak it to use two different campaign maps and use the PBEM files to send stuff between theaters.

i.e. first you play Europe, then load over to Pacific.

[Edwin P.]

The concept is that the two maps would appear as part of one very wide wide map. Transit tiles would link the two parts of the map and allow players to transfer units between the two parts of the map.

The standard SC Map is 120 x 38. The extension would cover 130 x 38 tiles. Thus extending the SC2 map from 120 tiles wide to 250 tiles wide.

I believe that this can be done within the current system.

[Retributar]

I LIKE YOUR CONCEPT Edwin P. . Let's hope that this can become a reality in the near future...if nothing else, sometime after the game is released!.

A while back i believe i had a Similar Concept along your lines of thinking in some regards.

In one case...as pertaining to for Example: Attacking STALINGRAD...Where one could move several Units if so desired into the city of STALINGRAD ... and a blown-up MAP of the city would now be displayed.

Here, you could fight it out Block by Block!. This of course, is not for everyone.

This would be an Option to be Exercised at the Players Discretion!,...not a required aspect of playing the game!.

[Lars]

If you can get it done under the current map, go for it.

But, looking at a map of the Pacific compared to the European theater, think you're going to need 130 x 76 (or better) for the second one. The Pacific is sort of more "square" compared to the rectangular European theater.

Could just widen the European one and adjust the transit times around the Horn to match. You're gonna need an arrow for Panama too, btw.

[santabear]

The map part seems clear.

But if the MPPs and unit numbers are "set" for the European theater (assuming that some units and MPPs are off fighting a Pacific war that we don't see), a Pacific extension would require adjusting some of those base values.

Otherwise, you'll have a very large map with too few units to use coherently, don't you think?

SB

[Edwin P.]

Lars,

I have thought about the Pacific Map alot, and in my extension I will largely focus on the area about China, Japan, Siberia with Pearl Harbor/Hawaii being the closest bit of American land to Japan. If anything I may have to, as you suggest, make the map taller and extend the USA map by 5 tiles west to increase American production.

SB, that is very true.

The one stumbling block I am debating how to handle within the current system is the effect of MPPs for Japan and China. Example - Japan as an Axis ally gives part of its production to Germany. Ideally I would like Japanese production to be limited to the building of Japanese units.

It should also be noted that if the Allies or Axis decide not to invest in Asia then they risk their opponent conquering all of Asia, and being able to send reinforcements through to the other front. I.e. if Japan takes Russia then they can send forces through Siberia to Russia. If the Allies defeat Japan first then Allied forces in the Pacific can be sent West.

[Lars]

You'd have to up US, Britain and USSR obviously. British MPP's would be contingent on control of places like India and Singapore. For that matter, so would Benelux's.

Also Edwin, Vladivostok received Lend Lease shipments on Russian flagged ships throughout the war. So you'd better keep that one for a USSR production center, plus, it would be good for the USSR to have something hanging out there at risk.

Don't think I'd add 5 tiles to the US. I'd add them to the other side for the rest of the CBI.

As for Japan and Germany swapping MPP's , I'd just disallow it. Never happened historically anyway.

[Retributar]

A transferrance of MPP's should only be permitted if there is a transportation link where ships or land units may be able to move materials.

In Japan's or China's case,...i would think that no MPP's could be transferred from Germany to Japan or from the U.S. to China or Vise-Versa until the above mentioned link could be created!.

---------------------------------------------

Let me Clarify a bit!.

A viable Supply/Materials/MMp transportation link may involve having "CONTROL" of that particular area.

Obviously, the Japanese or Germans would not be able to move meaningfull amounts of anything if the American Navy Controls the waters with Superior Naval Forces!.

[ February 13, 2006, 01:19 PM: Message edited by: Retributar ]

[Retributar]

Again...i know that my explanation doesnt really apply in at least SC1!.

In reality...the Japanese in WW2 built special aircraft to haul Oil-Supplies to Japan...because most of their Material/Supply ships were being sunk by U.S. Submarines...and this VITAL Commodity was not getting through.

Even So...how much Oil could you transport by Aircraft???...i wouldn't think enough to make any real difference!.

So, in the above example...the Japanese would not have a viable Supply/Materials/MPP transportation link !.

[ February 13, 2006, 04:34 PM: Message edited by: Retributar ]

[Lars]

For China, you'd just make it contingent on control of the Burma road.

For the Japanese oil, think that would be reflected by US subs sitting on the convoy routes. Just make Balikapan-Tokyo a "biggie".

[Edwin P.]

One way to prevent Japan from transferring MPPs to Germany would be to make Japan a majpr power and France a minor power.

I suggest this as France rarely stays in the game long enough to make a difference. Any comments?

[pzgndr]

Any comments?

[Lars]

Was that a wink as in you know something we don't? :cool:

[santabear]

I think that was a wink about France not staying in the game very long...

[Edwin P.]

Originally posted by Lars:

For China, you'd just make it contingent on control of the Burma road.

For the Japanese oil, think that would be reflected by US subs sitting on the convoy routes. Just make Balikapan-Tokyo a "biggie".

i.e. a convoy route from Bali to Tokyo - providing say, 75MPP per turn. Block that route and the Japanese are hurting. Naturally it does not activate until after the Japanese conquer Indonesia.

Thus forcing the Japanese player to decide between building a bigger army to fight the Chinese (who have no build limits on corps) or building a bigger navy to control the seas.

Simarily the USA must decide how much resources should be devoted to the Pacific. Too little and Japan will be free to attack Russia. Too much and the Axis may overrun Europe.

RE: China

- No Build Limits on Corps

- Armor, Airfleets, Rockets, Carriers, Bombers cost twice normal for China.

- Partisans are activated for China

RE: Map

The Map will likely be 75% Water - imagine 80 tiles between Hawaii and Japan - ie a long trip -with the occassional island & port between them.

Midway - Port and 2 titles

Hawaii - Port and 4 tiles.

[ February 14, 2006, 07:18 AM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[John DiFool the 2nd]

How much material was sent to Europe vs. the Pacific

in the real war? You hear a lot about "Germany

First!" but I gather it was just a diplomatic smoke-

screen to ease the concerns of the Russians and

British. Consider all the ships made for the

Pacific-dozens of CVs, cruisers and 8 fast BBs.

Most of the ships which went to the Atlantic were

already around by Pearl Harbor (or were refloated

after that battle).

[Retributar]

I heard on a T.V. show once, but forgot the figures...about the number of U.S. Aircraft Carrier's built in WW2,...they had Hundred's of them [Not, just...Dozen's]...of all type's.

I never realized that they had that many!!!.

[beginner's luck]

Originally posted by Retributar:

I heard on a T.V. show once, but forgot the figures...about the number of U.S. Aircraft Carrier's built in WW2,...they had Hundred's of them [Not, just...Dozen's]...of all type's.

I never realized that they had that many!!!.

Great link to see carriers built during WW2

[CPT Pete]

I believe they built 141 carriers of all types during the war. Love this web site:

http://www.combinedfleet.com/economic.htm

[Lars]

Originally posted by Edwin P.:

Thus forcing the Japanese player to decide between Building a bigger army to fight the Chinese (who have not build limits on corps) or Building a nigger navy to control the seas.

There's a quote you don't see every day in reference to the IJN...

As I said before Edwin, I'd just drop the MPP swap between Ger/Japan. Neither side had enough shipping to make it feasible, and by the time you're in a position to do it, you'll be sending fleets and armies to each other anyway. About game over at that point.

What would be interesting if there was some way to sell tech advances back and forth between the two, a la HOI. Quite a bit of that took place.

[Lars]

Originally posted by John DiFool the 2nd:

How much material was sent to Europe vs. the Pacific

in the real war? You hear a lot about "Germany

First!" but I gather it was just a diplomatic smoke-

screen to ease the concerns of the Russians and

British. Consider all the ships made for the

Pacific-dozens of CVs, cruisers and 8 fast BBs.

Most of the ships which went to the Atlantic were

already around by Pearl Harbor (or were refloated

after that battle).

A lot. A heck of a lot. Just read any of Churchill's quotes on the fate of two great empires coming down to something called LST's.

[Edwin P.]

It is also interesting to note that Russia received most lend lease support via Iran. Why? It was the safest route available.

[ February 14, 2006, 07:55 AM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[Edwin P.]

With this extension there will be no Siberian transfer event as the Allied player will control Soviet forces in the Far East. Withdraw Soviet forces to reinforce Russia against the German advance too soon and the Soviets may see the Japanese Army conquering Siberia, which will activate a merchant ship convoy route to Japan and increase Japanese production.

[Lars]

Edwin, then I'd definitely stick a few mines out there inland from Vladivostok to give the Japs something to go after.

Tied to a convoy route would be a nice touch, but I sure don't want to be that sub commander!