Greetings from russia!

[JerseyJohn]

Brother Rambo,

I didn't insult Boise. I said it's a place where you obviously aren't exposed to very much.

Perhaps I'm wrong, perhaps you've seen as much growing up in Boise as I saw growing up in New York City. Perhaps you've known as many WWII era survivors as I've seen and have known from years that you would probably have been in grade school at best.

Anyway, I took the time to discuss all of these things with these people at a time when they were still alive. Most of them are dead now and I doubt you've ever been exposed to anything any of them had to say and that includes Americans.

Okay, Boise really is a center of civilization, hurray-hurray.

I didn't call it a garbage dump.

The problem is it's all a game to you, even when the discussion gets into real history and real people and you'll distort any remark and any person if it leads to your being able to think you've come out on top of whatever you're argueing about.

Maybe it is a game and maybe you've won. Or maybe I'm the only one who'll even bother responding to you're hollow flag waving.

Wave your flag, keep quoting Band of Brothers and Patton and whatever other movie or tv series you've gotten your history from. I won't bother to respond anymore either. It's a dead end.

[JerseyJohn]

Originally posted by jon_j_rambo:

By the way, to anybody that doesn't know. Idaho is famous for its potatoes (see McDonald's fries) & New Jersey is famous for its garbage industry. Lets not forget those beautiful (sarcasim) casinos of Atlantic City. Go for a walk in Boise on a Saturday you won't look over your shoulder...now in Jersey, that's something you wouldn't even consider.

I fought to have you reinstated. I'm now on the verge of fighting to have you banned.

[jon_j_rambo]

@Sir Jersey --- Yes, you really are in a mood. I do like Band of Brothers & Patton. So you have talked to alot of veterans, I don't take away from that. Lets stick on subject.

My original statement: The USA was the good guys, the Germans were the bad guys.

[jon_j_rambo]

There were some freedom fighters in Germany, not many. But Shindler's List guy comes to mind. And yes, that is a movie too.

[jon_j_rambo]

.

[Kuniworth]

Well now, let us all once again rejoice in the victory of the russian people. Horrah!

[Korut Zelva]

hehehe It's obvious Rambo suffer a severe case of Pattonite (which you catch watching and quoting too many american war movies). Symptoms are color-blindness (so everything is seen as either totally white or totally black) and delusion about the awesomness of Idaho (j/k) .

[Kuniworth]

Korut you seem a bit gay.

[guinty1]

i dont usualy get into arguments about the pitfalls of wars but Waltero is wrong to say that just because we didnt *do ww2* we know nothing about war,in my youth i fought in a war ,a limited one i will admit but still i seen friends killed and some awfull sights a guy shouldnt at 19 yrs old.war didnt end in 1945.... it has never stopped since man lifted his 1st axe in anger.

[Tagwyn]

Query: I'm new here. Who is "the legend?" It would take a vast undisciplined ego to claim that status for oneself, wouldnt it? T

[jon_j_rambo]

@Sir Jersey --- Nobody has a monopoly on truth, I've talked to plenty of first handers invovled in WW-2. Taking nothing away from the people you have talked to, do not take away who I have talked to. Two of my Uncles were in the Navy during WW-2. One fought against the Japanese & the other against the Germans. On my paperroute as a kid, I was shown the tattoo on a holocaust survivor, she was a Jew & outspoken about her experience with Germans. It wasn't a picnic. We didn't get into the politics of the people who did that to her. Another neighbor was an infantry man who fought against Japan (marine actually). My buddy's Dad (died 2-years ago) fought at Iwo Jima & recounted his experiences. This old dude in a previous church I attended participated in the Bulge. So, I to have talked to veterans of WW-2, there is no monopoly on them in the East Coast.

[ May 15, 2005, 03:49 PM: Message edited by: jon_j_rambo ]

[Tagwyn]

Hey! HAS anyone read the rules agains flaming, etc? Any person who has studied or participated in WWII knows the Red Army carried the heavy water. Thier courage will live in the annals of History for ever. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone! PS: That would not be me. LOL Tag

[Korut Zelva]

I swear, that gay obsession of yours never got old Puni

[JerseyJohn]

Brother Rambo,

I'm glad you've spoken to people with first hand knowledge of the war. That's good.

What I'm saying and what I said from the start is anyone who puts on a uniform and goes out to fight for his country is on a level playing field morally. The soldiers of one country are as right or as wrong as the soldiers of another country.

You can't smear them with the attrocities committed by other people from that same country. I was in the Air Force during the Mi Lai Massacre in Vietnam. It's as absurd to say I have guilt for that as it is to say a particular German soldier was guilty for the concentration camps.

Collective guilt doesn't work. And to say we fought for good and they fought for evil is also wrong because nobody in the United States thought the Final Solution was real till they actually began liberating the camps in 1945.

It happened that we were on the side that wasn't committing the attrocieties, but we never set out on a crusade against wrong-doers. That's a myth.

As for Pearl Harbor, you're getting into one of the most complicated issues in modern history and waving a flag and saying it was a sneak attack and all that doesn't work. To begin with, it was never planned as a sneak attack. That was the result of two Japanese diplomats in Washington D. C. who took too long to type their country's declaration of war.

It made for great propaganda but I've heard more than one American vet saying he never gave that a second thought. As one of my late uncle's put it, "What did we expect them to do, pull out a glove and slap us with it and challenge us to a duel? The world doesn't work like that." And yes, he fought them in the Pacific.

I have nothing against people being proud of their country as long as they do it witout putting down someone else's and denying their people the right to be proud of their own people.

[Curry]

Kuni nice pics share more

[JerseyJohn]

Originally posted by Kuniworth:

well now, everybody take a deep breath and lets celebrate the russian people on their glorious and enormous achievment!

Okay, better late than never!

Sorry Kuni, I was a bit distracted when this thread was running and didn't mean to ignore your sharing this with us. Naturally I hope you had a great trip and enjoyed every minute of it. I agree with Curry and hope you'll post more of the photos you took there.

The famous photograph of the second man to raise a Soviet flag over the Reichstag. It's like what happened at Iwo Jima where it was the second flag raising (on Mt Surobachi) that got all the publicity.

[jon_j_rambo]

Rambo salute those individual Russia dudes, despite not liking what their government did during the Cold War, Cuban Crisis, etc.

[ June 05, 2005, 09:48 AM: Message edited by: jon_j_rambo ]

[JerseyJohn]

That's the spirit, Brother Rambo!

And for equal time, here's the full shot of that second flag raising at Iwo Jima.

[jon_j_rambo]

The average Russia dude, was dirt poor, & really had no choice but to fight for his/her life. I highly doubt the Russians in the Factory Works @Stalingrad were debating economic plans of a post-war Europe.

[Kuniworth]

Originally posted by jon_j_rambo:

The average Russia dude, was dirt poor, & really had no choice but to fight for his/her life. I highly doubt the Russians in the Factory Works @Stalingrad were debating economic plans of a post-war Europe.

exactly.

[Kuniworth]

Due to public request, here are some more pics;

Veteran and young boy walking hand in hand. Pikarevskaja-memorial cemetary may 8th;

Busses in St Petersburg, specially decorated for may 9th celebrations;

View from the large war monument in the southern part of the city, incredible. There was another building just like this one to the right that had the exact same decoration with the number 1945 on it;

This 94-year old man served within the artillery in Stalingrad and walked with Zhukov's troops all the way to Berlin. He was injured bad on april 30th 1945 in the suburbs of Berlin. He cried when he talked about the horrors of Stalingrad. Talking to this man was a very touching emotional experience.;

[JerseyJohn]

Kuni,

Beautiful photos and great background information on them.

Appreciated and hoping you've got more of the same you'll share later.

[Kuniworth]

Originally posted by jon_j_rambo:

Rambo salute those individual Russia dudes, despite not liking what their government did during the Cold War, Cuban Crisis, etc.

Great to hear it from you Rambo. My opinion exactly!

[jon_j_rambo]

Maybe somebody could make a Band of Brothers, the Russian version?

Honestly, I don't know squat about Russian history. I've heard about Stalin's purges & WW-2, that's it? The Russian immigrants in my immediate area keep to themselves for the most part. The ones I've met were Christians, rather simple, humble people, that love the Gospel. I couldn't even imagine living in Eastern Europe during WW-2, the Cold War, or now.