Greetings from russia!

[Kuniworth]

Hi, just wanted to drop in to say hi to reverybody from Russia. Im now in Talinn, Estonia, but went to st Petersburg to celebrate the 60th anniversary of the victory over nazi-germany, on may 9th. It was a glorious celebration and on tv they showed the whole parade from Moscow - very touching. The old men sitting behind George Bush and Putin was decorated with the hero of the soviet union award and they just shined, they felt good that people remember what their generation did.

One of my most emotional moment in St Petersburg was when I got to spoke with an 94-old veteran. He had almost no decorations to show off with and couldnt walk without the help of his kids. I started tot alk to him and he was a veteran of the artillery from stalingrad that went all the way to Berlin under Zhukov's command. He was injured on april 30th 1945 inside Berlin, and got severe wounds to his legs. THis old man did not really want to talk and when he mentioned Stalingrad he just cried, you can imagine the horrors he had seen.

Well Im going back to Sweden tomorrow. Just wanted to say hi. To relate this to SC; after reading more about the history of Talinn in ww2 I think its vital it will be included into sc2.

[SeaMonkey]

Lucky You, Kuni, you should count your blessings. There will be very few of us who will have the opportunity you just experienced....happy for you, and it seems you may realize the significance. Hmmmm, could it be our Kuni is maturing?........Nah!!!

[dragoon19]

Hi Kuniworth,

Spent some time in Tallinn two years ago. Did some battle field tourisme east of the city. The Russian attack and the German defence in that region is really crazy stuff on a wast scale.

The Estonians can still pull out T34 and all kinds of equipment and explosives out of the ground out there.

Have a nice time in Tallinn, and drink some Saku beer for me...

[Seawolf]

Jersey

I remember reading in Churchill's history of ww2 that he was affraid that if England was conquered that firstly, the navy should go to Canada. The Nazi's would kill the families of the British naval personnel. Secondly, that the new Nazi British Gov. would raise troops to fight against American, USSR, etc.

So the UK may be more of a 2.0 or 2.5 than a 1.0.

And if England fell, Vitchy France may become full blown Nazi Allies.

Something to think about!

Seawolf

[JerseyJohn]

Seawolf,

It sure is, but I'm afraid you've put it in the wrong Thread. This one is Brother Kuniworth's adventures in Russia.

The Thread you want is:

< Nations that Switch Sides >

Interesting points you've brought up. It sounds plausable.

Except for Hitler killing the families of British naval personnel, I do recall Churchill writing something like that but I think he meant the top families of top admirals. Both he and Stalin held families as hostages to be used against those they wanted to control. But the families of anyone lower than admiral would have made little sense.

I hope you'll move that post to the appropriate thread as it adds a new perspective to both the UK and Vichy France.

[jon_j_rambo]

The History Channel has had some great episode on this week too.

[Curry]

Kuni,

Thanks for the report. It must have been very special. There was a lot of controversy in the news here on the whole celbration which really took away from the event itself and all those who gave so much to defeat the Nazi's. Again thanks for the report, lucky you.

[jon_j_rambo]

Whatever with the Russians, they were & are Commies. They weren't 'really' Allies & they aren't now, we just have a common enemy in Germany. The entire cold war & bondage Russia put to half the civilized planet shows their true colors.

Far as the individual dudes who fought for The Reds, well, I do salute them! Those Ivans & Vladamirs were tough cookies.

[Kuniworth]

Originally posted by dragoon19:

Hi Kuniworth,

Spent some time in Tallinn two years ago. Did some battle field tourisme east of the city. The Russian attack and the German defence in that region is really crazy stuff on a wast scale.

The Estonians can still pull out T34 and all kinds of equipment and explosives out of the ground out there.

Have a nice time in Tallinn, and drink some Saku beer for me...

Yes SAKU beer is really good, bought some boxes to bring home :cool:

As you say the battles of Tallinn were really crazy stuff, it was the location of a russian dunkerque in 1941 with terrible losses and once again in 1944. Both germans and russians did their best to kill off "dangerous elements" before they retreated. Horrible stuff.

Tallinn was important as port and close to the bottleneck Narva just north of lake peipus. And should be in the game.

[jon_j_rambo]

Hubert, can Tallinn be added?

[Franky-Boy]

Interesting. My grandfather (85 years old) was a (decorated) member the german Waffen SS. He was not a "nazi", he just fought for his country, just like the russian and american soldiers, who are celebrated as heroes nowadays. The only difference is that Germany lost the war and the allies won it.

Most people forget that there are also german soldiers who unfortunately fought for the wrong idea of this fascist regime. Nevertheless, they did their "job" quite good.

Sorry, but this is my personal opinion.

[JerseyJohn]

Franky Boy,

Great Post.

Fear not, there are many of us who don't look down on Axis war heroes. And also many of us who realize the Waffen SS drafted large numbers of men from 1943 till the end of the war and many of them were neither crazed nazis nor sociopathic murderers.

Thanks for telling us about your grandfather and an even longer life to him.

[jon_j_rambo]

Yes, me too, I prefer being murdered by a regular German army member rather than a Nazi.

[JerseyJohn]

Ah, so if an American kills in a battle it's heroic but if an enemy does it to an American it's murder?

The soldiers, regardless of which side they're on, are doing the same thing, that's all. Every soldier in every army is acting out of loyalty to their country. Which is patriotism. It isn't somethin Americans have a monopoly on.

We aren't talking about atrocities, we're talking about battles.

[Franky-Boy]

Originally posted by JerseyJohn:

Thanks for telling us about your grandfather and an even longer life to him.

Thanks for your kind words and understanding. By the way: my gradfather Lothar Becker will celebrate his 85th birthday on May 17th, that's in three days.

@jon_j_rambo

I think that you have a much too ideological viewpoint of this subject.

[Kuniworth]

Here is one photo I shot of the military parade in former Leningrad;

And here I am at the Pekarjev(?) memorial cemetary. 495,000 people buried from starvation on a spot no more than 200x200 yards;

[jon_j_rambo]

We didn't stuff Jews & many others into ovens. We didn't ask for the war, that's the difference. People always have a choice, every individual has a choice. Germany (and the majority of its people) declared war on the the majority of the planet. The United States was formed by people fleeing from the tyranny of Europe, the better seed. The USA rebuilt Germany, that shows our heart, whereas the Germans would have like to murdered every person on this Earth if they had the chance.

Don't ever compare German soldiers to what my Uncle had to go thru in WW-2. German (& Japan for that matter) started the whole mess. We were defending the little people & the Jews.

"So, Jed, what makes us different? Are we being just like them?"......"Because we live here!" --- dialog from Red Dawn.

"all this time in Germany, & I've never met a Nazi yet". --- Band of Brothers

[Comrade Trapp]

Originally posted by jon_j_rambo:

Don't ever compare German soldiers to what my Uncle had to go thru in WW-2. German (& Japan for that matter) started the whole mess. We were defending the little people & the Jews.

I agree with what Jersey said:

"Ah, so if an American kills in a battle it's heroic but if an enemy does it to an American it's murder?

The soldiers, regardless of which side they're on, are doing the same thing, that's all. Every soldier in every army is acting out of loyalty to their country. Which is patriotism. It isn't somethin Americans have a monopoly on."

Also, your not the only one who has relatives who served in WWII.

[Comrade Trapp]

btw, great pics Kuni, especially the first one.

[Kuniworth]

Here is one showing an example of may 9th advertisement the city had put up;

[jon_j_rambo]

@C.Trapp & Jersey --- Never said war is heroic. What the Germans did was wrong (both Nazis & the regulars)....I can't believe I'm either bothering. If you can't figure out the good & evil of WW-2, then you have some problems.

[JerseyJohn]

Brother Rambo,

You aren't standing for good or for evil, you're lumping tens of millions of people into a single group and judging them all as though they had something to say about the atrocities. There were NO photographs of the concentration camps floating around Germany. There were no newspapers articles saying x number of people had been killed or anything else to that effect. People were rounded up and it was said they were being relocated somewhere in Poland or Russia. Anyone who asked about them wound up having problems so people stopped asking.

The regular German Army did not have anything to do with this and neither did the majority of the Waffen SS, who were too busy fighting for their lives.

Yes there were death squads and yes there was Babi Yar and yes there was also a Me Lai and yes there was also a Wounded Knee and a Trail of Tears.

Being judgemental and selfrighteous and condescending is not only insulting to everyone it's very, very boring!

For all we know there could be death camps in the United States right now and we wouldn't know about it. For all we know the United States government could be openly endorsing and using torture and yes, we do know that.

Aside from which, we didn't treat the Japanese AMERICAN CITIZENS very nicely during the Second World War and I'm damn sure the majority of American people didn't know about those camps exactly as the majority of Germans didn't know about the death camps.

And no, the United States did not include the persecution of the Jewish people as one of our war aims. As a matter of fact, as late as mid-1942 it was being downplayed and a committee of American Rabbis meetind at Washington D. C. said they thought the whole final solution rumor was nothing but nonsense.

As for American soldiers being with the angels, forget that. I've had plenty of Pacific Marine and Army veterans tell me the main reason the Japanese POW count was always so low was because they didn't take any. Simple, white flag, unless you need info you let them come out and shoot them down. This even standard policy for most regimental commanders who did not want Japanese prisoners under any circumstances.

And you don't have to explain right or wrong to anyone, that's as insulting as you're blanket remarks are to tens of millions of Germans and Russians about mass guilt.

If you came out of a country where you lived your own life under blatant oppression there might be something to take seriously. But you haven't and you don't seem to have known anyone who did. It's easy to talk virtue when you aren't living with a gestapo or commisar pistol at your head.

[jon_j_rambo]

Good grief. Can you say Pearl Harbor? I didn't know Japanese soldiers surrendered at all. The war on that front was defined by the Kamakazi.

Back to the Germans....well, I know it's cool & hip to say it's the Nazis fault, but we can never seem to find a Nazi, can we? What the hell(heaven) were the "Regular Germans" doing invading other countries? Okay, lets talk statistics, how many Germans were at fault? 1%, 2%, 5%? How about 30%, 40%, 50%,.... 80%? 85%? 99%?

You guys treat war like it's a football game or something. The Germans attacked nearly the whole planet, killed people, raped people, tortued people, ruin lives, etc...and today we sit on a computer & people think...oh, they were just being soldiers, just doing their duty.

I don't blame the German people of today, they didn't do anything, but those "Regular Germans" aren't little angels with guns doing their duty, they were killers. See Russia if you want some stats. Of the 3,000,000 who kicked of Barbarossa, what were they doing in somebody else's country? Were they having a picnic?

Now, listen closely, this is why I'm for not putting our soldiers in Harm's Way for others, nobody respects or understands.

[jon_j_rambo]

Time for me to put Band of Brother's in the DVD player on my big screen.

"Don't tell me you couldn't smell the ovens", great quote from Webster.

[jon_j_rambo]

Band of Brothers,"Why We Fight", episode #9 is now playing at the Legend's house.