To die in Madrid

[The Great Santini]

It seems a shame that Britain has to stand idly by while Germany smashes Spain, often in the summer of 1940, and then roars down to take Gibraltar and seal off the Mediterranean from the Allies. With its' excellent defensive terrain and large body of commanded troops isn't there some way to make the Germans bleed for grabbing this country? Perhaps a British amphibious landing at Bilbao to reinforce the Spanish and MPPs sent to strengthen and concentrate Spainish units. What can be done?

[Edwin P.]

Good question. The problem is that sending UK troops into Spain is a deathtrap, that costs you valuable units while delaying the Axis advance for only a turn or two.

When my opponent does this I will often; but not always, invest MPPs to influence the USA to enter the war sooner than normal.

[Liam]

A defense perimeter is possible, if the British have time to both entrench in the mountains and hammer a foolish German from the Coastal Regions. These require a little bit of skill. As it also leaves open Egypt and England possibly. Egypt isn't really a concern as it's not a gamebreaker but the UK itself will fall if they relocate too many troops to the wrong place at the wrong time. Making not usually smart to do this strategy...

You'll probably see a protection of Spain only if O'Connor and the Egyptian Units were evacuated and in the area and Germany goes in weak...

Against a good Axis player, with Tech Spain will fall and it'll cost the British 10Xs what it is worth holding.

[Bromley]

On the tech front, there's a possibility that German units going into Spain will deliberately not be upgraded to avoid signalling what the emphasis will be in Russia.

I'd agree that you're normally going to need an HQ and that the most likely source is O'Connor, so you can only mount a defence by signalling that you've evacuated Egypt. Therefore any gain in terms of slowing down the Axis in Spain will likely be partially offset by a speedier fall of the Middle East than if you had not signalled. There does remain a chance though to significantly delay Barbarossa and all of your units should have died in >5 supply, so you'll get your rebuilds.

In a mirror game my opponent landed the BEF in Bilbao unsupported, so it died the next turn as I could hit it with 4 air units. I then went on to break my advice to him that it was a bad move and ship a couple of units in myself in the mirror, but the difference was that he'd spread his air out over three theatres.

So if the Germans go in soft, it might be worth taking the risk with 1-2 corps/armies as long as they stay in cities for the guaranteed rebuild. Anything that delays Barby is good for you.

If you're worried about the UK being exposed, you probably have enough time to build more corps and probably already have enough in place to defend against a small raid (as you know most of his units are tied up in Spain). I haven't checked the scripts, but IIRC a Sealion after Spain and Vichy have been attacked will likely bring the US into the war. Very bad news for the Axis if the Sealion isn't immediately successful (and possibly even if it is).

For the Spanish, pulling back to screen Madrid whilst the tank is rebuilt and fortified in the city seems the most sensible thing to do. Is it worth reinforcing Franco though?

[ April 26, 2007, 04:18 AM: Message edited by: Bromley ]

[Liam]

Again, good point

against a good Axis player, abandon Spain and just attempt to make it semi expensive or it'll cost you more than it's worth, a defense is only possible if the Axis doesn't align his forces down the Middle properly.. There is no chance for the British to hold Spain without dying there. The Axis can slowly grind them out and the gain is not worth it. Against a bad Axis it'll never fall..or will cost them the game entirely

[Desert Dave]

Simply, Spain has become just TOO "pivotal"

A real-politik player,

In the grand scheme of things.

Seems as though some - Occam's Razor

Sort of tweaking is needed, IMO.

NO WAY Hitler lets his resentment

(... having helped Franco win the Civil War)

Interfere with his over-riding

Necessity - nay, his dumb OBSESSION to secure

That hyper-propagandized "liebensraum."

In real deal WW-2 anyhow.

Playing it out, well, that's another story,

And,

No doubt Liam's so-called premier players

Have gotten it gamed pret' good.

[... no doubt! They ARE good, they just

haven't played much beyond that small

circle of dedicated competitors... that'll

probably change in due time ]

As is, it's not enough.

Not by a long shot.

Needs be some creative re-thinking

RE: that whole - Southern Crescent,

Madrid -> Gibraltar -> Tunis ->

Cairo -> Baghdad -> Tehran.

Diplomatically, and militarily.

Game ain't "balanced" if the "what-ifs"

Become... unreal BIG difference makers.

[ April 27, 2007, 04:03 AM: Message edited by: Desert Dave ]

[Blashy]

I do not find Spain too pivotal at all.

You can actually leave it alone as Axis and use the mpps for diplomacy for more units in Barbarossa.

If you intend to attack it, again less units for Barbarossa.

The biggest obstacle for Axis is the Allies mpps, so if you can negate Russian mpps with a huge Barbarossa you can also win the game this way, taking away mpps instead of acquiring some via minors.

[Desert Dave]

Well,

Reading over the AAR's,

And listening to such discussions

As above and elsewhere, it seems,

I say - SEEMS as though most players,

Whether Axis or, even Allied,

Think it an advantageous tactic

To attack and,

Fairly easily - conquer Spain.

Now,

I gotta ask - how historical?

Is the "what-if" MOSTLY

Become - a sorta-gotta have?

It... seems so? No?

Did it happen, in

Real deal War - as that?

If not,

Why not?

[Liam]

Spain is an easy source of cash and it's close, you don't have to cross an ocean to get to it...

North Africa and MiddleEast are a harder target if the Allies go for it... Possible interdiction by the Royal Navy.

Definitely taking USSR Resources if Partisan Blocked is a viable route. Finland alone ups MPPs for Axis, 2 mines that alone is 20 MPPs. Not evening hitting the interior of USSR

Originally posted by Blashy:

I do not find Spain too pivotal at all.

You can actually leave it alone as Axis and use the mpps for diplomacy for more units in Barbarossa.

If you intend to attack it, again less units for Barbarossa.

The biggest obstacle for Axis is the Allies mpps, so if you can negate Russian mpps with a huge Barbarossa you can also win the game this way, taking away mpps instead of acquiring some via minors.

[Desert Dave]

And!

Not only that,

But what of... Vichy France

And Switzerland?

Why weren't they attacked

During the real deal war?

Again,

It SEEMS as though MANY Axis

Players pile up them MPP's

Doing just that, eh?

IF the players are aggregating

MORE MPP's than would,

Or should be the case,

THEN they are accumulating excessive

Monies (... and morale)

So to exaggerate the ACTUAL ability

Of Axis to conduct

Wide-spread conflict.

Argue all you want about

How everything is in apple-pie order,

BUT,

I say - some of these conquests

Exceed the norm,

And careen off into the X-treme

A bit too often.

Same for the Middle East.

Since when did FM Rommel

Have such a swift! Kick 'em

Around time of it?

Why should it be so freakin' easy

For Axis to take Egypt

And Syria and Iraq and Iran?

Apparently,

And again - going by AAR's I have read,

It seems to go

WAY beyond the pale,

And over the river and

Into the neon-lighted dale.

Or,

Am I missing the GIST of this? :confused:

[Blashy]

Well a big problem with Spain and Switzerland, as well as Turkey is Mountains.

I've discovered that if Mountains cost +2AP instead of +1 right now, they PLAY and FEEL like the logistical nightmare they were in WW2.

Right now mountains are equal in AP to marshes, crossing enemy rivers and blitz. They were a huge obstacle in WW2 and still are to this day.

With that said, players do have hindsight and many do not commit the many tactical errors dumbass Hitler did. Still Mountains are too easy to pass.

[Retributar]

This is very-very-good!,...picking apart weaknesses/deficiencies in the game!. I love it!, we need more of this!. These effort's can only improve the game beyond it's original design template!.

One day,...when enough discussion 'Input' is accumulated, perhap's we will start to see the creation of SC#3???.

[Liam]

Retributar, I can already see the expansion of SC2 into SC3.0. You already see the basis for GREAT advancement...

Originally posted by Retributar:

This is very-very-good!,...picking apart weaknesses/deficiencies in the game!. I love it!, we need more of this!. These effort's can only improve the game beyond it's original design template!.

One day,...when enough discussion 'Input' is accumulated, perhap's we will start to see the creation of SC#3???.