Have Croatia as an axis minor

[Duro]

Put Croatia as an axis minor in the game because it just wouldn't be a game without Croatia. Unless you have already thought of putting them in. And make it hisorically correct.

[Liam]

Duro, I think that including a Portion of Yugoslavia into Greater Germany works, maybe even a Corps to defend against Partisans in the Mountains?

[Edwin P.]

The game engine only allows for 22 Minor Countries. What country would you eliminate to put in Croatia?

The other option is to petition Hubert to increase the maximum number of minor countries to allow for Latvia, Estonia, Lithuanisa, Egypt, Morrocco, San Marino, Andorra (its between Spain and France) and Monaco (on the Southern coast of France). That's 30 countries, excluding Croatia and Luxemburg.

Or more realistically;

Personally, I would support the editor allowing for 30 minor countries, but the number in SC2 should be kept at 22 or increased to 23 if Egypt is added as a minor nation controlled/conquered by the UK.

Having more minor nations would also allow for Morocco to become a French/Vichy controlled neutral nation, although one with no cities or just one city - Casablanca 4 hexes southwest - 190 miles - of Gibraltar or Oran (6 hexes southwest - 280 miles - of Gibraltar. on the Atlantic coast. (Suggested by Jersey John).

Allied Invasion of French Morocco and Algeria - Operation Torch

[ May 09, 2004, 04:17 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[J P Wagner]

If he did increase the minor Countries, it would have the added benefit of allowing the same number to be available for the editor...

[pzgndr]

Unless something changes later, let's accept 22 as the number of minors and work with that. While more minors would be nice, what we can do with the ones we do have in SC2 is more important.

Take Yugoslavia. Instead of Croatia as an Axis minor, it should now be possible to use diplomacy to change Yugoslavia's alignment from Allied to Axis. This would represent Croatia gaining the upper political hand and possibly result in an Axis coup. What's interesting is the full political spectrum we're being offered. :cool:

As for the 22 minors, I would expect mods could make some reasonable adjustments. Iceland could be combined with Canada, Iran and Iraq combined (yeah, right!), Portugal and Spain combined, etc. The idea would be to free up a few minors so we COULD create Austria and Czechoslovakia, or whatever.

[vveedd]

With all respect to our history I think that Croatia had too small roll in WW2 to put in SC2 game. Don’t get me wrong but looking from grand strategy perspective, SC2 is still to grand to put Croatia, Andorra, Monaco etc. To my opinion Yugoslav partisans also shouldn’t have been in SC1 and SC2. They didn’t have significant roll until Russian came.

[Edwin P.]

I agree that SC2 is on too grand a scale for Andorra, Monaco, etc.

As for the Yugoslav partisans their operations tied down a significant number of Axis troops and kept them from being deployed to the Eastern or Western fronts.

[vveedd]

Originally posted by Edwin P.:

As for the Yugoslav partisans their operations tied down a significant number of Axis troops and kept them from being deployed to the Eastern or Western fronts.

I agree. They had significant sabotage roll but they didn't liberate any larger city until Russian help them. Before that they liberated only lots of forrest and mountains.

[Liam]

Yugoslav partisans definitely didn't breed half strength corps every other turn like they do in SC 1 and spread all around the Balkans taking it over and they wouldn't have been able to either

Even a Balkan city Militia in Bulgaria/Romania/Greece/Albania/Hungary would've stopped them... so isolated partisans to their mother country would be a smart additive.

However Partisans in more an abstract fashion that reduce the value of say Resources in the Balkans, or Yugoslavia is more realistic. Even increase the cost of Operating units in and out of the area due to Rail damage. The primary of function of Partisans. Lawrence of Arabian style... Good Pioneer of sabotaging a Larger army with a small band by hurting their ability to transport and supply... That and if a Rebellious country is abandon long enough perhaps then it can breed a resistance that could take it back over.

Croatia, was too small. Luxembourg is too small to be honest. Although Luxembourg has a valuable resource, it has Metals...though no real army to resist, I think Luxembourg City or a Mine should be included but not the Country. Croatia from what I know was not recognized as a real nation, may have been a puppet regime. Fact is they were one amongst several factions against the Serbians in Yugoslavia. We should represent those Factions as Mentioned by Panzer. I agree totally, that the Bosnians/Croats/Albanians/Macedonians/etc... could've caused a lot of havoc for the Serb Goverment and for themselves... There should be a great X Factor in Yugoslavia. I don't say divide the Nation but if you invest in her to attempt to make her align with your Country, a big risk that another Rebellious coup will steal away your investment. Plus you have to include whether or not you harm other Balkan Minors.. Had Germany not invaded Greece to help Italy perhaps no investment would've been neccessary or any invasion. Yugoslavia had a decent Army. 3 corps is pretty pathetic..I'll bet the Yugoslavians of 1941 would've given the US Army a run for it's money organized

What of Lichenstien?<sp heh that's the smallest nation I know of in Europe, can't include them.

[DalmatiaPartisan]

vveedd!

if You dont know exact history of some world parts better dont talk about it. Comparing Croatia to Andora and Monaco is the same to compare London to Torquay...

Yugoslav partisans had high mobility and discipline and thatswhy they tied down significant number of axis troops. After fall of Italy partisans liberated Split and before that they kept many towns in Bosnia.

In the later faze of ww2 main role of partisans was to preserve axis troops from withdrawing from Balkans.

Croatian axis forces had been involved in Stalingrad campaign and many other axis operations-thatswhy I think after fall of Yugoslavia there should be an option to install axis government in Croatia with 1 corp placed near Zagreb.

[DalmatiaPartisan]

Liam

Yugoslavia didnt have decent army when attacked 1941-I agree that 3 corps isnt quite adequate-I d say there should be more forces but with really low readiness. Yugoslav army wasnt modern and well equiped, morale was very low(good job of axis inteliggence).Fact is that many ranked officers of army were Serbs and in many cases they were killed by their soldiers when axis attacked.

If Yugoslav army had more disipline and higher readiness when attacked by axis I bet Germans would have much more problems.

Only Yugoslav air forces(as elite forces) had some modern Dorniers and other AF but very few of them had a chance to fight...

[With Clusters]

Anyone up for Axis 'partisans' if Belgrade is Allied?

[ev]

Originally posted by DalmatiaPartisan:

...after fall of Yugoslavia there should be an option to install axis government in Croatia with 1 corp placed near Zagreb.

Say in case Axis takes over Yugoslavia, a part of Yugoslavia's terrotory (Croatia) becomes full axis, while part of Yugoslavia (Serbia, etc.) remains occupied Yugoslavia, with partisan's etc. ...and, further say that when Yugoslavia is liberated, only the Serbian part is liberated, but the Croatian part is treated as if still part of the Axis "homeland" would that sound good to you?

[Liam]

Agreed Dalmatia, Greece gets 2 Armies.. The Yugoslavians get 3 Corps, there is no sense in that. Croatia served their Axis Masters well.. Although so did many other nations.

I would think that most of the Balkan Minors were poor quality troops. Bulgaria, Romania and Hungary get 4 Armies they could'nt hold the line at Stalingrad. They were not like the Germans who were fighting fanatically for World Domination. I think the Italians were even slightly better rated but not by a large factor they couldn't beat Greece on their own. Fact is the Balkans had a lot of reason to fight each other but not as much to fight others outside. Although Yugoslavia did.. they were invaded.. Why Greece and Albania didn't join in the Partisan Movement I'm not sure, fear of Reprisals I imagine...

[Panzeh]

The Hungarians fought hard near the end of the war, particularly when the Romanians turned allied.

[James B.]

Is it really feasible in this game to include Croatia? I mean, there are only so many hexes in the game anyway, in SC1, Albania consisted of what, 2? Croatia would just get in the way and detract from the experience. There is just not anything important about this addition either. If you want that much realism, what about Slovakia? And anyway, the additions of these nations would confuse an already odd shaped map. If you looked closely at SC1, you saw that if you tried to draw Czechoslovakia, instead of being oriented horizontally, it went almost vertical. While borders look to be improved in the new game, a small nation the size of Croatia does not seem to be feasible. If this is a must have, buy Hearts of Iron, which is about the most in depth world war ii game available, and it includes Croatia after the fall of Yugoslavia (as well as Slovakia).

[Edwin P.]

James B.

I agree with your points, for much the same reason that the Low Countries (Belgium and the Netherlands), the Baltic Countries (Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania) and San Marino are not shown as seperate countries.

[Roosevelt45]

Originally posted by Edwin P.:

James B.

I agree with your points, for much the same reason that the Low Countries (Belgium and the Netherlands), the Baltic Countries (Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania) and San Marino are not shown as seperate countries.

You forgot Luxembourg

[vveedd]

Originally posted by DalmatiaPartisan:

vveedd!

if You dont know exact history of some world parts better dont talk about it.

I am for Croatia and I know OUR history. Problem is that we have two version of our history: communistic and post-communistic. In first one, partisans were exactly as you said and in second one, they were guerrilla fighters in forests and mountains with significant sabotage roll (as I said before) but with no major strength to liberate any city. Villages in Bosnia I don’t count as well as Split. They liberated EMPTY Split because Italian forces ran away but when German forces came they pull back in mountains and forests again. As for Croatian axis units you are also right – few of them fought in Stalingrad and they did that very well but it was a small number of units comparing to other Axis forces.

Comparing Croatia to Andora and Monaco is the same to compare London to Torquay...

[vveedd]

Originally posted by ev:

Say in case Axis takes over Yugoslavia, a part of Yugoslavia's terrotory (Croatia) becomes full axis, while part of Yugoslavia (Serbia, etc.) remains occupied Yugoslavia, with partisan's etc. ...and, further say that when Yugoslavia is liberated, only the Serbian part is liberated, but the Croatian part is treated as if still part of the Axis "homeland" would that sound good to you? [/QB]

NO! It sounds bad because is not true and it is historically incorrect. Serbia was not pro-allied oriented in WWII. Lots of Serbians were in Chetniks units leading by Draze Mihajlovic.Serbia was very peaceful because they served Axis master much better then Croats and Bosnians. Chetniks main activity was killing Croats and Bosnians in Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina (like they did it 1991 again) and because of that most of partisans were Croats and Bosnians and they major activity was in Croatia and Bosnia.

Tito was a Croat and main underground resistance to Axis occupation was in Zagreb.

[ May 15, 2004, 06:40 AM: Message edited by: vveedd ]

[James B.]

HELLO, are we forgetting the fundamental issue here? Is it really important to include Croatia at all? Is this necessary or does it contribute ANYTHING to the game without the need for special rules? Do we want them to spend time developing this or on play testing? Anyway, you guys sure are arguing over some recent events that won't be in the game, and it seems stupid. Anyway, partisans already appear in occupied Yugoslavia, in the Croatian area. So isn't this issue kind of mute?

[vveedd]

You are right. Just wanted to clear some wrong historical facts here. I won't discuss about this any more. I have enough politics on TV at home.