What advantage will a larger Russia offer the Allies?

[Edwin P.]

In the new map Russia is a lot larger. What advantage will this offer Russia? How will it affect German strategy?

Does it mean that Russia has more cities?

Does it mean that the Russian Capital will relocate farther back from the Main lines?

Will it offer the Russian player a choice of where his capital relocates to if Moscow is taken?

Will the USSR now have 4 alternate capital cities, 3 in the western part of the USSR and one in the Eastern part?

[Night]

It means that The Germans won't have the advantage of bringing a massive army over to the west almost overnight and will actually have to fight for years.

Consider having an opition where the USSR surrenders the western half of the country after the Urals and Caucasus fall because it does seem a little ridicilous for Germany to have to march across Asia

[Sombra]

Longer supply lines, more partisans, more terrain to hide.

[pzgndr]

One unrealistic aspect of SC1 is that ALL of Russia's economy is on the European map, which in itself is somewhat reduced. This means that there is more for Russia to lose, and for Germany to gain, than was the case historically. Look at your typical SC1 game. Once Germany crosses that "magic line" in Russia and gains a decisive MPP advantage, it's pretty much downhill for the Allies.

By giving Russia more room and spreading out its resources, including placement of resources on half-tiles on the eastern map edge where they can't be touched (ie, Asian resources), this creates a much more realistic situation.

And with new force pool limits and nation-specific industrial modifiers and lend-lease and everything else, we should be able to better simulate the overall conflict. That's the goal anyway. And with the editor, you'll be able to tweak and adjust things to make everything perfect depending on whatever your idea of "perfection" is.

[Desert Dave]

By giving Russia more room and spreading out its resources... this creates a much more realistic situation.

Bill is telling you true. Better get ready. NOW, is not too early.

For one startling indicator, here is a simple map comparison:

In SC1 the distance from Moscow to the Ural Mountains and the East edge of the board was... 7 hexes.

In SC2 the distance is... ~ 20 tiles!

Now, does that sound like the happily marauding German player is going to have a happy-go-lucky time of it?

Given that ONE HALF of the calender year you will likely have difficult mud & snow weather, where movement and combat is compromised?

And given the wide open spaces which, as Sombra has suggested, will cause all sorts of supply problems?

As originally posted by Edwin P:

Does it mean that Russia has more cities?

More CRITICAL cities that are almost out of reach, such as:

Archangel.

Archangel far to the north in that icy Arctic Zone, has a port which will receive Lend Lease from the USA (... remember, USA can assign MPPs as it chooses... a lot, or none at all, depending on how the strategic and economic situation is at the moment).

As one of very many possible strategies, you might bypass Moscow, heading north by east, and slog your way up past Vologda and try to lay siege to Archangel.

Interestingly, Basra in Iraq, at the tip of the Persian Gulf, is also a Lend Lease Port.

This should provide additional incentive for the Axis player to reconsider his Mediterranean strategy, and the Allies would probably want to go all out to protect this vital area.

I mention in passing... The Desert Fox has already noted this, and has fired off urgent! requests (... really, more like old-school demands! ) for more men and materiel, most especially... half-tracks, camo-netting and loads of scorpion-like 88s! :cool:

[Edwin P.]

The more I hear the more I am impressed by SC2.

These changes, and those mentioned in other posts, mean that strategy is much more important in SC2 and that no longer will there be one cookie cutter way to secure victory or starve off defeat.

Now the Allies and Axis have a reason to fight over North Africa and the Axis have a reason to wage war in the Atlantic. With the map so much larger there is more opportunity for surprises for both sides.

Not only that, it also looks like games will have a fair chance of lasting into 1944-1945. When the Allied offensive comes in the West the Axis will have much more territory to trade for time as they attempt to defeat the Allied landings in the West.

[ April 28, 2004, 03:39 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[Edwin P.]

Bump, for those newcomers to the board who missed this earlier post.

[Desert Dave]

In the new map Russia is a lot larger. What advantage will this offer...

Good question.

For one thing, it will mean MUCH more careful planning and execution will be absolutely required.

IOW, no longer can you merely set up the tin soldiers in the sand-box and just... shove them forward ho! into the seething Maelstrom. :eek:

The DEPTH of decision making will be as HUGE

As the SteppenWolf-expanse itself!

And,

Due to force pool limits, you'll have to somehow insure that not very many "blitzing lanes" are available to... The Nefarious Foe.

And,

Due to "customizable" unit deployments, you may well need to have unique formations capable of SPECIFIC tasks.

IE,

One way to counter the Panzer blitzing might be to create a couple or 3 Anti-Tank units (... IE, when you build new or upgrade old units) which would HIDE like hungry wolves - in reserve, and then!

Assualt the spear-head, thereby blunting the treacherous thrust and possibly cutting off a VERY valuable Panzer IV!

Yep, the sheer SIZE of the new SC2 Russia will change the S&T IMMENSELY!

Many, many, many, many different ways to play now, and no doubt... EACH of the Game Players will soon come to be known for... a distinct, and VERY personal style of execution.

So & so is inclined to have more low grade units (... "quantity IS quality!") or so & so mostly constructs small "elite units" capable of incautious acts, and so & so very often will "take the blows" for a long, long time, and then roll out the T-34s that he has SECRETED far to the rear!

Etc, etc.

It's gonna be... AMAZING! :cool:

[Night]

Prehaps Germany will have to start planing and executing the invasion of Russia eariler then normal due to the fact that it will take so much more fighting, time, and resources to fight and win in Russia, that doing it later in the game when Russia is stronger AND the western Allies are more geared for offensive war (Specificaly the U.S. joining and preasure being taken off England.)

This would make a late or even historicaly on-time invasion near suicide since even a relativly sucessful campaign in Russia will still take too long and allow the western allies far to much time to use their larger MPP income and reduced expendatures due to battle loses (compared to Germany, which will be heavily engaged, thus spending tremendous amount of MPPs on replacements etc.) So basicly even if you are close to destroying Russia, you will still face a massive D-day or other form of massive invasion/engagment by the U.S. and U.K. that Germany will find nearly impossible to win.

[pzgndr]

it will take so much more fighting, time, and resources to fight and win in Russia, that doing it later in the game when Russia is stronger AND the western Allies are more geared for offensive war

Maybe, mabe not. Production technology for USA and USSR will have larger industrial modifiers for historical growth rates, but the growth will still be dependent on random research advances. I know this irritates the heck out of some players, but for replayability and shear suspense there's nothing better. Throw in FOW and weather and everything else and you won't be sure of anything. Each game will be different, as it should be, yes? :cool:

Statistically, there will probably be some games where the Allies get a raw deal or perhaps a great deal depending on how things go. On average, things "should" play out OK. A strong USA can help a weak USSR with lend lease convoys; a strong USSR won't need the help and would compensate for a weak USA. Or both countries may advance more or less "normally." We'll have to see how playtesting goes. Event scripts can be used to schedule some resource growth and help moderate any extreme effects of the research variability. Don't worry; we don't intend to leave things up to chance completely.

[Guest Mike]

Basra is a lend-lease port because that's where a lot of the LL was landed - the allies invaded Persia in 1942 to secure that route.

Vladivostoc was also a major LL port - inded teh arctic route was probably the least important one of all, although the best known because fighting was actually involved along it.

There's a brief history of the WW2 involvement of Mid-east countries at http://www.members.tripod.com/~marcin_w/index-2.html