Mod Idea: Russia vs Japan and Japan vs China

[Edwin P.]

Since the map is only 120 wide, and the max is 256 it appears that I can extend the map east (about another 120 tiles) to Siberia and Manchuko (Japanese occupied Manchuria), and south to include China and northern India. While placing the Russian cities that are only half tiles on the standard map on full tiles.

Thus, the Siberian Army can be deployed along the Manchuko border opposite the forces of a neutral Japanese army.

IF the USSR withdraws troops from the Siberia before the USA enters the war then Japanese war readiness increases. If Japan enters the war then it may decide to invade Siberia. Ofcourse, Russia may always decide to DOW Japan.

Of course this mod would make the map really long - about 250 titles, with half the length taken by Eastern Russia.

Now, if only the game allowed for 3 more minor/major nations, I could add China and India and Japan without having to eliminate other minor nations. To allow for the French player to control China and the Italian player to control Japan(on a really wide map).

Of course this - the ground war between China and Japan - would take major play testing but would add a totally new dimension to the game, with China having access to partisans and a purely infantry force that must fight off a less numerous but better equipped Japanese army.

[Edwin P.]

What Russian cities would I add in this expanded map?

1. Vladivostok

2. Irkutsk

3. Novisibirsk

4. Omsk

5. Samara

Thus making the decision on when to withdraw the Siberian garrison a more interesting one and a calculated risk and allowing the Russian political capital to move again - to Samara.

OMSK

"Forever will remain in the history of WW II the names of its heros. The name of Dmitry

Karbyshev, our fellow-countryman, Omsk Military School graduate, man of great strength

became a legend. 134 Omsk citizens were awarded the title of Hero of the Soviet Union.

During this time the city 2,5 thousand kilometers away from Moscow was hosting the

evacuees from Leningrad and other front-line towns and cities. Sharing bread and shelter

with them. Omsk received industrial enterprises from the Ukraine, turned its cultural places

into hospitals. 37 hospitals were opened and each third Omsk dweller became a

blood-donor during the war.

There almost was no civil construction during the war. On the vacant lots were urgently

erected shops of military plants. In those days started their activities the Baranov motor

works, the Oktyabtskaya Revolution tank plant, Omsk tyre plant and many others, turning

Omsk into large industrial center of Siberia. The builders lived in barracks which disappeared

totally only in the 70s."

Samara

"Founded in the 15th century Samara is today an important industrial and cultural centre of the region and the 6th largest city in Russia. Formerly known as Kuibyshev, the city played a big role in the Peasant Uprising under Stepan Razin and again in 1773 under Yemelin Pugachev. Samara played an important role in the Great Patriotic War. Though it was not bombed because it was on the wrong side of the river, Samaran soldiers were well know for their bravery at the Battle of Stalingrad. Their losses were severe - about 100,000 soldiers. Because of its defensibility, Samara was the alternate capital of Russia during the war."

Novosibirsk

"Is the largest city of Siberia, the vast region of northern Asia east of the Ural Mountains. Like most of Siberia’s urban centers, the city is located in the south along the Trans-Siberian Railroad. The majority of Siberia is sparsely populated.

During World War II (1939-45) many industries were moved to Novosibirsk from the combat areas of European USSR."

[ November 01, 2005, 06:13 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[stoat]

How big was Chita in WWII?

[NumLock]

Wouldn't India just be under British control from the very start?

Would it make a huge difference if Eurasia was shortened by 40 or 50 tiles so that Japan itself is included? Are we really going to see the Russians fighting beyond the Urals? Perhaps if so the Japanese would declare war on Russia to grab up Siberia, since the Russians likely would be on their last legs.

The reason being is that with the expanded map size, the Russian player might be able to sweep Manchuko before the German player could take advantage of the reduced focus on the Eastern Front (East of Germany that is, not Russia). The Japanese army wasn't very organized and poorly equipped by the standards of the 1940's, unlike their Navy which was very good on both accounts.

So it would be quite a stretch to give them an HQ unit (I'm not aware of any Japanese General who was notable for anything other than brutality). Combined with their lack of heavy tanks I don't think they would put up much of a fight.

With the Island of Japan it would be much harder for the Russian player to wipe them out early, and invading Manchuko might be a double edged sword if they have to keep significant forces there to prevent the Japanese from retaking it.

Though I suppose that you could script it in that a group of Axis controlled ships and transports appear off the coast of Manchuko every 5 to 10 turns, possibly depending on the amount of troops the Russian player has in the area. Less Russian troops = Greater % chance of Japanese counter invasion. Perhaps less of a chance once the USA is in the war.

[Edwin P.]

Numlock, I like your idea of including part of Japan and giving the Russians the opportunity to attack Manchuko.

Also, correct that India would be controlled by the British from the start, and would provide a city or two where the Brits could build units and repair ships if Egypt fell to the Axis.

It should be noted that they; Russia, did not do so in WWII as Manchuko is a long, long ways from Moscow and the Polish border (and not wanting to take on Japan, a major power), but the option should be there and the Factories of Manchuko would make it worthwhile. But holding them against the Japanese would hard and an attack here would give the Japanese justification to attack Russia, thus negatively affecting USA war readiness.

Note that operating Siberian troops from Siberia to Moscow will be expensive and moving them to Moscow via normal movement will take a long time. (120 tiles divided by 3 = 40 turns)

--------------------------------------------

Add Japan as Neutral Power = Make Portugal Part of Spain or remove from game.

Add China as Neutral Power = Remove Iran from game.

------- China has Partisans

------- China no limit on number of infantry Corps

------- China has no naval or air power at game start

------- China can't build armor units

--------------------------------------------

Any comments JerseyJohn?

[ November 01, 2005, 08:04 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[Blashy]

Edwin, eliminating a few minors might not be so hard.

In the editor you have Spain and Republican Spain, the last one is not in use in the default scenario. Neither is Saudi Arabia.

You could easily eliminate Switzerland.

This would give you 3 open slots for minors.

You could make Japan/China as active minors under control of Italy and USA and India a minor under UK.

[Edwin P.]

Blashy, many thanks for the great ideas.

I never realized that SC2 has Republican Spain and never thought of removing Switzerland and Saudi Arabia from the mix.

And having China an active minor under US command would really liven things up for the USA, while he patiently waits to enter the war. Having Italy control Japan would really give them something to do.

This could be a really interesting mod. Now I just have to get a map of China, Korea and Russia and convert it to SC2 terms, while of course creating a HQ unit for Mao.

I wonder, if I can limit Japanese Production and Chinese Production MPPs to only benefit Japan and China? Why? I would not want the MPPs generated to finance the building of more units for their Major Country allies.

That said, the options for Russia would be:

01. Russia

01.1 Withdrawing units from Siberia too soon could activate Japan.

01.2 Attacking Japan means that Russian units are committed to war in the East, but gain the chance of gaining additional Resources if victorious.

01.3 Withdraw units from Siberia but use Diplomacy against Japan to counter increases in War Readiness

01.4 Use diplomacy on China to encourage it to activate so it can be used against Japanese forces. Note: If China activates then Japan activates.

[ November 02, 2005, 09:04 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[NumLock]

How about just making Italy a German controled minor and making Japan a Major faction? While that would pose the problem of Japan never entering unless the Russian player attacked them.

But if the Russian player doesn't attack them (or the German player doesn't trigger a Japanese DOW) all that map space and the nations in asia would seem to be a sideshow without effect on the real theater of war.

So how about making it a "War in Siberia" senerio were Japan DOW on Russia sometime after Germandy invades Russia. This sort of makes Japan the Axis version of the USA, in that they can come to save the day if the German player is having trouble in Russia.

[Hubert Cater]

In this case you could script Japan to enter the war based on a certain set of conditions i.e. unit build up, or even from just events during the war etc., or just by simply entering on a certain date. Lots of flexibility

[Edwin P.]

HC, thanks for the feedback. I will have to give a lot of thought to when Japan and China enter the war. Looking forward to creating this mod, and seeing what the AI scripts can do.

But my initial thoughts are:

a. Number of Russian units around Vladivistock affect Japanese War Readiness.

b. Axis can affect Japanese War Readiness.

c. Russia and USA can influence Japanese War Readiness

d. If Moscow is taken Japan, Japanese war readiness increases.

e. If Japan enters war then China enters the War, to reflect Japanese problem in fighting a two front war.

f. USA enters war then Japanese war readiness declines as Japan will be focused on defeating the US and not attacking Russia. This means that Russia can safely transfer troops west after the USA enters the war.

Any comments?

Why is map so big?

Russia is a really big country. Largely empty but really big. I could make Eastern Russia smaller, but I feel that it really deserves at least 90 tiles to emphasize the vastness of Russia and China as opposed to Western Europe.

Why China?

The War in China really tied down the Japanese army and was one of many reasons it did not attack Russia in the far east. In my view you can't reflect the Japanese threat to Russia without also showing the War in China.

The problem for the American/Chinese player will be spending enough MPPs in China to prevent Japan from feeling free to focus his units on attacking Russia. If they can push Japan out of China then the US will gain a big bonus in MPPs. If the Japanese can defeat China they will have the production base to attack Russia.

PS: USA/China and Russia will be non-cooperative allies. This means that Chinese units can't enter Russia; at least I think that it does.

Russia Terrain:

"East of the Urals from the border with Kazakhstan, China and Mongolia to the Arctic coast lies Siberia - a scarcely populated area covered by coniferous forest, swamps and tundra in the north and mountainous terrain in the south."

My feeling is that the map will model the southern part of Eastern Russia (the only populated area), most of China, all of Korea and a small part of Japan.

Russian Siberian Forces

My feeling is that the Siberian forces will have 2 HQ units, 2 Corps, Armor, 2 Air, and 2 Armies.

Withdraw the forces too soon to Western Russia and the chance for Japanese activation increases.

[ November 04, 2005, 07:34 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[Edwin P.]

October 21, 1941.

Memorandum for the Chief of Staff:

Subject: Kwantung versus the Siberian Army

I have prepared this copy of the above study for submission to the President Inasmuch as it points out the desirability of certain action by the United States. It is requested that you decide whether or not it should go forward.

(signed) Sherman Miles

SHERMAN MILES

Brigadier General, U. S. Army,

Acting Assistant Chief of Staff, G-2.

(EXHIBITS OF THE JOINT COMMITTEE, PHA, PT. 14, EXHIBIT NO. 33 MILITARY INTELLIGENCE ESTIMATES PREPARED BY G-2, WAR DEPARTMENT)

I. B. 144

October 21, 1941.

Memorandum for the Chief of Staff:

Subject: The Kwantung versus the Siberian Army

(For Situation Map see Tab A.)

1. The best information available to this Division indicates the strengths of the Siberian forces east of Lake Baikal and the Japanese Kwantung Army in Manchoukuo to be approximately as indicated below:

Kwantung Army | Siberian Army

Infantry ........ 25 Divs. (450,000 men) | 31 Divs. (540,000 men).

Cavalry ......... 4 Brigs. ( 12,000 men) | 10 Divs. ( 75,000 men).

R. R. Guards .... 36 Bns. ( 72,000 men) | ______

Tanks ............ 7 Regts. ( 1,750 tanks)| 10 Brigs. ( 1,600 tanks).

Air Corps ........ 7 Regts. ( 500 planes) | 10 Divs. ( 1,677 planes).

Army Troops and overhead .... 150,000 men | 25,000 men.

Total Man Power.............. 684,000 men | 682,000 men.

2. It is to be noted that the Siberian Army is relatively strong in cavalry and in planes at present. However, the Japanese inferiority in the air could be quickly altered by shifting from China (where Japan is practically unopposed in the air) the bulk of the Japanese air forces operating with the ground forces in that area.

3. Although the quality of the present leadership of the two opposing forces has not been tested, the consensus of opinion here is that the leadership in the Siberian and in the Japanese forces is the best in their respective armies.

4. In general, the materiel and equipment in neither force is comparable to the latest types in use by the German, British and American armies. Russian medium and heavy tanks are believed to be superior to similar equipment in the Kwantung Army.

5. Weather conditions during the fall and winter months give a slight advantage to the Siberian Army, inasmuch as the Japanese, as a people, have not had time to be come inured to the rigors of the extreme cold prevalent in Siberia during these months.

6. Neither the Siberian nor the Kwantung Army has a sufficient superiority over the other, at present, to warrant an offensive. This situation may change, however, in the near future if the Siberian force or any large part thereof is moved westward to strengthen the forces in European Russia. The Kwantung Army, on the other hand, has doubled in strength since July 1, 1941, and it is fairly certain that Japan will continue to strengthen this army with whatever men and equipment she can spare from China and Japan Proper.

Page 1361

7. If and when the Kwantung Army feels that it has a combat superiority over the Siberian army of 2 to 1 it is highly probable that it will take the offensive regardless of the policy and intentions of the Tokyo Government. When this ratio rises to 3 to 1 or better the probability will become a certainty.

8. This being true, it is very much to our interest, so long as Russia continues to offer active resistance to Germany, to take whatever steps may be possible to maintain the present Russian equality in combat strength vis-a-vis the Kwantung Army. Two such practicable steps immediately present themselves:

a. Increased aid to China, to enable the latter to continue to pin to the ground in North, Central and South China the bulk of the Japanese Army.

b. Increased aid to the Russian armies both in Europe and Siberia.

SHERMAN MILES

Brigadier General U. S. Army

Acting Assistant Chief of Staff, G-2.

Enc.: Map [1]

Distribution:

The President

Secretary of State

Secretary of War

Under Secretary of War

Assistant Secretary of War

Assistant Secretary of War for Air

Chief of Staff

Coordinator of Information

Director of Naval Intelligence

Assistant Chief of Staff, W. P. D.

G. H. Q.

General Embick.

(EXHIBITS OF THE JOINT COMMITTEE, PHA, PT. 14, EXHIBIT NO. 33 MILITARY INTELLIGENCE ESTIMATES PREPARED BY G-2, WAR DEPARTMENT)

[Edwin P.]

Kwantung Army | Siberian Army

Infantry ........ 25 Divs. (450,000 men) | 31 Divs. (540,000 men).

Cavalry ......... 4 Brigs. ( 12,000 men) | 10 Divs. ( 75,000 men).

R. R. Guards .... 36 Bns. ( 72,000 men) | ______

Tanks ............ 7 Regts. ( 1,750 tanks)| 10 Brigs. ( 1,600 tanks).

Air Corps ........ 7 Regts. ( 500 planes) | 10 Divs. ( 1,677 planes).

In SC2 terms this appears to be:

Air: Japan 1, Russia 3

Armor: Japan 1, Russia 1

Army: Japan 2, Russia 2

Corps: Japan 4, Russia 4

HQ: Japan 2, Russia 2

In China Japan will likely have:

3 Air, 8 Corps, 4 Armies, 1 Armor, 1 HQ units and a naval force of 1 Battleship, 1 Cruiser and 1 Carrier group.

The problem that Japan will face is that withdrawing forces from China to face Russia will weaken them against the Chinese Resistance, which is supported by the appearance of partisan units.

Notes on Chinese Production:

1. Low Production base but gains no cost partisan units

Notes on Japanese Production:

1. Japanese Production is strong as long as it can hold onto captured territories in China and Manchuko.

[ November 05, 2005, 10:14 AM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[NumLock]

Did the USSR have any naval presence in the Pacific during WWII? I would think they would have at least attempted to build up a force after the Russo-Japanese war.

[Edwin P.]

The Russian fleet in the Pacific was insignificant compared to the Japanese Fleet. Perhaps, at best a half-strength Cruiser unit in SC2 terms.

"By the beginning of the Russo-Japanese War of 1904-1905, the Russian Naval Forces in the Far East consisted of the 1st Pacific Squadron (7 battleships, 8 cruisers, 13 torpedo boats, 2 gunboats) and a number of ships from the Siberian Military Flotilla (2 cruisers, 2 mine cruisers, 12 torpedo boats and 5 gunboats) were based in Port Arthur. Other ships of the Siberian Military Flotilla (4 cruisers, 10 torpedo boats) were stationed in Vladivostok.

During the Russo-Japanese War, the sailors of the Pacific Fleet showed heroism and courage, however, most of the Russian Navy in the Pacific was destroyed."

"Due to the Japanese aggression in Manchuria in 1931, the Central Committee and the Soviet government decided to create the Naval Forces in the Far East on April 13, 1932. In January of 1935, they were renamed to the Pacific Fleet (commander – M.Viktorov). The creation of the fleet entailed great difficulties. The first units were formed with the small ships, delivered by railroad. In 1932, the torpedo boat squadron and 8 submarines were put into service. In 1934, the Pacific Fleet received 26 small submarines....

By the beginning of the World War II, the Pacific Fleet had 2 above-water ship subdivisions, 4 submarine subdivisions, 1 torpedo boat subdivision, a few squadrons of ships and patrol boats, airborne units, coastal artillery and marines.

During the Great Patriotic War of 1941-1945, the Pacific Fleet was in a permanent state of alert and ready for action. At the same time, the Soviets transferred 1 flagship, 2 destroyers, and 5 submarines to the Northern Fleet (see Soviet Red Banner Northern Fleet).

By August of 1945, the Pacific Fleet had already had 2 cruisers, 1 flagship, 10 destroyers, 2 torpedo boats, 19 patrol boats, 78 submarines, 10 minelayers, 52 minesweepers, 49 “MO” boats (MO stands for Малый Охотник, or “little hunter”), 204 motor torpedo boats, 1459 battle planes."

[ November 06, 2005, 07:29 AM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]