Liam Posted August 29, 2004 Share Posted August 29, 2004 Retributar, I watch too many movies and play too many flight simulators. The level of US competence is I think always questioned in War Movies dealing with Pearl and then onward. A level of Fear is there, as if it all could be over for us and the Japanese on US soil within moments! I guess the real threat was always apparent by our focus on Europe not the Pacific We did have some good luck scoring 3vs1 though at Midway don't you think? The quota sounded neat for a US invasion plan, saying that if the Kriegsmarine was at a certian level it could outgun and crush the US Navy. Though who would really sit and want to build up a fleet in the last year or two of SC, few would, but some do finish their games out. I have to think that a lot of people overlook England is where the Battleground would be not the USA. Unless Sea Lion happened, then what would really happen? In SC the game is over if USA/USSR doesn't DOW by then. If they do, and the US commited resources to UK defense, this could possibly mean the end of the USA if the Kriegsmarine uses it's subs and Italian Navy to lock up the Americans, 4-5-6 armies few HQs<what near a Million US Troops?> and couple fighters on UK with 2 Battleship Armadas could be enough to sway Americans to peace. So how would a quota mix with a destruction of US Ships and Servicemen work for some sort of Victory Condition? This is probably the most practical way to figure it out and if the US doesn't enter onto UK soil to save the day then she is a Non-Combatant and shouldn't even be included in a game's Victory Conditions should she? Unless she can liberate the UK within a certian period of time? That or take out the Germans herself Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuniworth Posted August 29, 2004 Share Posted August 29, 2004 Originally posted by Liam: We did have some good luck scoring 3vs1 though at Midway don't you think? Japan lost 4 carriers, US just 1 so it's rather 4vs1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuniworth Posted August 29, 2004 Share Posted August 29, 2004 Originally posted by Liam: We did have some good luck scoring 3vs1 though at Midway don't you think? Japan lost 4 carriers at Midway 4-6 june 1942. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liam Posted August 30, 2004 Share Posted August 30, 2004 Well I heard that twice but thanks for the information Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted August 30, 2004 Share Posted August 30, 2004 Liam You're posting at your exhausting best! I agree, it is fun to throw these things around. I didn't mean the topic was closed, I meant my part was already written as far as I could take it, but perhaps a little more wouldn't hurt the cause. Starting with the Ancient Romans! Yes, I agree that modern civilizations can assimulate cultures and populations much better than ancient ones, except possibly the Romans who adapted all the Gods of the people they conquered and, sooner or later, made them all Roman citizens. In the time of Trajan and Hadrian, approximately 210 A. D., the Roman borders were extemely secure. Militarily the empire was at it's strongest and Trajan may actually have been the best general it ever produced. He conquered the Middle East pretty much out of boredom and regretted not having any legitmate enemies to fight against! The reason he was killed and boundaries rolled back was only because the Romans themselves felt they already had enough territory to control and didn't want to expand any farther. It wasn't till over a century and a half later, after they'd been ravaged by plagues, that parts of the empire became grossly underpopulated and ripe for barbarian invasions. What's the comparrison to WWII? That Germany, with 85,000,000 people in central Europe would have found it very difficult to effectively control hundreds of millions of people in the areas they would have conquered. They couldn't have expanded further untill they'd effectively assimulated them into what would have been the greatest European empire of all time. It might well have taken generations to accomplish that task. They would also have needed to rebuild all of Europe before being able to harness it's production. We're talking about a prolonged effort here; it would have required many years to achieve. Japan would have had an even harder task. It was conquering large, unindustrialized regions and huge populations that were barely able to feed themselves. There were approximately 90,000,000 Japanese. Compare that to 750,000 Chinese at the time and 700,000 Indians (includes what is now Pakistan and Bangaladesh). Add to that various other conquered populations such as the Indochinese and Indonesians etc and the Japanese would have been even more hard put than Germany. Prior to the war, Japan, as an industrial nation, ranked below France and ahead of Italy! The United States, USSR and UK were in an entirely different league from them. Japan's fleet was huge, but it was composed of ships that were built from WWI onwards. The United States built more ships in 1942 than Japan had built in the preceeding twenty years! So, any Japanese invasion of the American west coast would have needed to be fast indeed! Regarding South America, I didn't say the United States would invade the place. Most of the South American countries were solidly alligned with the U. S. to begin with. I'm saying that if any, such as Brazil and Argenina had alligned themselves with the Axis the United States would have needed to invade them and, as you pointed out, using it's navy, the U. S. would have had little problem in doing so. The South American dictators knew this and so did the Germans. The only way Germany could have been a threat to the United States, assuming it had won the war in Europe, would have been to sign a peace treaty with the United States and rebuild. While doing that it might well have gained allies in South America and would no doubt have helped them become stronger. A triumpant Germany reaching across the Atlantic after five years of peace would have been extremely formidible. But (I shudder bringing this up again ) steam rolling right away from Europe to Africa and across to the Western Hemispher in a single war would have been futile. Actually, I believe Germany would have found it logistically impossible. It literally needed to build a fleet before even attempting such a task. Hitler's Z-Plan included a second phase that would have prepared, in peace, for what he regarded as the ultimate war, against the United States. All very speculative stuff and perfect material for an SC type game. I'm glad it didn't come about historically. Had Germany succeeded in conquering the British Isles I'm sure it would have happened at some point. Retributar Glad you finally got the sort of discussion you were looking for. I enjoyed reading your post analyzing what Liam and myself had been haggling about. It made me dizzy but I enjoyed it all the same! One of the first threads Liam started at SC was called, What If's of SC. and went on for I think 270 or so posts! It meandered through history, went through the Persians, the Spanish Conquistidors, back to Alexander the Great and Ghengis Kahn and finally ended with the Atomic Bomb! -- We always like to throw that thing in somewhere. This one reminds me a little of that one except nobody's mentioned Artaxerxes -- some debate about whether he wasn't the guy who invaded Greece and we corrected it to Xerxes; next we had to establish who Artaxerxes was and why he was in our spiraling thread! But we've got Trajan and Hadrian here, can Alcibiades or perhaps Atilla be very far off? I think not! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon_j_rambo Posted August 30, 2004 Share Posted August 30, 2004 Land all you want in America. There's 300 million people here, lots of us packing heat. I'd suggest going to Disney World in Orlando rather then bombing Pearl Harbor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avatar Posted August 30, 2004 Share Posted August 30, 2004 My two cents: There is no likelyhood, in any way, that Germany would have invaded the North American continent. Ever. Not later, not ever. It's a ridiculous historical what-if? Hitler might, *might* have held on to what he conquered in Europe had he won. Even if the USA were the only contender against a victorious Axis, they would easily have held up against any invasion. Do you realize how long those supply lines would have been for the Axis? It's not feasable. Perhaps a few commando-raids, Iceland, Greenland, ok. But taking on an remote continent? No. Never. US Navy was too strong, would have been stronger in 1950, Germany would have invaded a country with some 10 million (non-russian) soldiers, fully dedicated to stopping any invader. No way. If Hitler spoke of it, even he knew how seemingly impossible it would be. Hell, he barely wanted to invade England across a small channel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retributar Posted August 30, 2004 Share Posted August 30, 2004 Gee!!!...the Spaniards, the French & the British all managed to invade North and Central America with ancient ships and low technology......'so what's so impossible' for any other power to invade the U.S.??? . OHHH!!!...they cant cross that OCEAN!!!...It's TOO Vast!!!...I say Bull-Dung!!!...to that!. A few thousand Vikings rampaged through-out almost all of ancient Europe with small fishing boats!!!...and for example forced the French to give exorbitant tribute to them to bribe them to leave,...so if these ancient cultures could do it...why couldn't the Germans do it???. The Spaniards with a few hundred or thousand men conquered all of the ancient Mayan, Aztec, and other empires in Central & South America even though they were outnumbered by many times over a 1,000 to 1. So numbers alone are not always enough to make conquest undo-able. I don't know what the population figure for the U.S. was in WW2...i think it stands at 290,000,000 million now...with 5,000,000 a year for the past who knows how many years being Mexican border crossers who end up staying permanently there. Canada invaded the U.S. in 1812..and burned down what was the counterpart of the White-house. Canada almost won that war!!!...im biased!...of course!. So... i still think it could be done...unless solid proof shows me otherwise!. Whole populations do not need to be heavily garissoned in conquered countries if one has the threat to use weapons such as for example bio or chemical or alternate weapons if subjugate populations get out of control...the Germans i don't think would have been squeemish about doing that. How do you think Sadam Hussein stayed in power in 'Iraq' with such a small 'sunni' minority population...im sure the German's would have figured it out!. That would help free up manpower that is tied down in those regions. So one way or another, including recruiting more Waffen-SS type units could have helped to secure a manpower shortage that would be needed to be addressed... in order for an invasion of North America to proceed!. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desert Dave Posted August 30, 2004 Share Posted August 30, 2004 ...including recruiting more Waffen-SS type units... Well, as we sure suspect, This would be no problem whatsoever. Then, 1944, Or, when I was in, 1966-68, Or now. Too many like to strut along With the shoulder-rolling bullies. Always a problem. Excellent point, however, about Ancient invaders. **(... original "beserkers" were those Vikings - do you know how they "psyched" themselves up? What "magic elixir" they drank? ) I suppose, IF GErmany had truly WANTED To invade USA, They could have. Certainly. Lots of pristine, resource-rich land (... well, there used to be, but Teddy Roosevelt is not around to fend off the Corporate Raiders no more... :eek: ) And lots of GErman-Americans to TRY and enlure Into "Father-land" mythology. However, IMHO, more likely that you'd have Two super-powers staring each In the face, MAD as hell And NOT! going to take it anymore. [... "mutually assured destruction" I mean, just as it happened vis-a-vis USA & USSR). Interesting to speculate, Nothing wrong with that, but There's just no way to REALLY KNOW What would have happened, Other than the aforementioned Bully Parade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liam Posted August 30, 2004 Share Posted August 30, 2004 The variety of historical discussion takes me back to a life you know you may have lived in your dreams or some other existence. To possibilities that are only truly realized to those few that have the heart and imagination to do what the World can only dream of. Their dreams are our reality and history.. Great men such as Emperor Trajan, Alexander the Great, Emperor Napoleon, Cortez, Svend the Ist, and where do we stop, great conquorors that achieved unimagined success. Reality in Germany vs USA, I think longterm we're looking at a Much larger and more dangerous foe than USSR ever was. We never technically fought USSR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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