If not DoW by Germany, when would USA/USSR have entered WW2?

[Blashy]

I've read Stalin had plans to enter somewhere in summer of 42. I would like more accurate information if possible.

As for USA, what is the most probable date? Hitler did them a favor by a DoW. So had he not done so, how long until they enter? The current scripts might be about right?

I would like to make those two issues a part of a mod. Not that they MUST join. But that they will join but most likely on their own "historical" time without a DoW.

I can easily fix that, simply have them increase via the already scripted increases due to DoW by Axis forces but no unstoppable increases starting from date X. Of course Diplomacy could bump them either way. It would stop at 80% but by date X they would join.

The only infor I've ever read was the speculation of soviet invasion in early June of 41. Even though they had massively more troops than Germany, they all had poor weaponery in every aspect, so that would most have likely endede in even more massive losses and probably better advancement into Russia by the Germans (probably no time for effective scorched earth).

[ November 05, 2006, 09:07 AM: Message edited by: Blashy ]

[arado234]

Blashy ive read many books on ww2(about 200)& from waht ive learned & talking to vets on this subject if hitler hadnt declared war on america roosevelt would have had a real if not impossible goal of getting congress & the us people to back him up on a dow on germany.The americans were so mad at japan that germany was the farthest thing from their mind.They wanted to wipe out japan first then go after germany.Luckily hitler was an idiot.As far as stalin goes from what ive learned he was planning an attack in 1942 sometime depending on what germany was up to & how many troops were massed on his border.He knew that the germans out classed him.So this is a tough one for you to decide.It does sound like fun though

[AZGungHo]

Hey Blashy,

I've read that Russia was planning on entering the war in 43 if Russia hadn't attacked them by then. They would have been able to upgrade their forces by then with the T-34 and other things.

Who knows?

[Konigs]

Ditto on Arado. Some of Stalin's Generals wanted to pre-emptively strik Germans in '41. He sacked those generals, he was commited to attacking Germans in '42. Roosevelt would have continued to press the Germans in the Atlantic. Declaring free zones further into the Atlantic, having American protected convoys. He was looking for the "Lusitania" of World War II, there were many incidents before our entry into the war. Once he had the rallying cry of the public Congress would hve had to respond. I say it would have been by Summer of '42 latest. We had a large up swing in War material production in the fall and winter of '41, and it was not all for lend lease.

[Edwin P.]

During WWII US Navy ships hunted German submarines while US was neutral.

[Liam]

This is a very difficult question. I am no expert on either subject. Rumour has it that the USSR was gearing up to really strike out on Germany. Though you know how that goes. I'm certian eventually, but when?

As far as the United States attacking Germany, I think you should base it all upon Percentages. We never wanted to fight a War in Europe. Not in WW1 or in WW2, at least the Pacific has American interests. That is partially why of the slow D-Day and the slow and smaller sacrifices of the USA in WW2. It's not really American Soil and if not for Britian we'd of likely left it forever. U-Boats attacking American and Canadian Convoys too close to North America Shores is a direct act of Provocation. Certian European Minors would be as well! Primarily that's about it... The best way to simulate a War entry by the USA is to give a big increase for Pearl Harbour and then secondly Increase the Convoys if the Axis do not DOW, and increase the U-Boat war and create a true battle of the Atlantic. Forcing the Germans to decide, do we try the USA's Patience by striking at her convoys or potentially Canadian ones carrying American Passengers?

Not just but creating a lot of unpopular opinion. In WW1, the Germans built a U-boat that ferryed Supplies from the USA to Germany, the American's praised it.. Too small and too insignificant but still, true and factual. Once the Germans started hammering Neutral Ships like the Lusitania, it was a political Nightmare, you could say that the U-boat though an effective weapon against Britian and an answer to her blockades was the single most destructive weapon to the Reputation of Germany in WW1, and then again in WW2 adding to it's unpopularity, she'd of been better off not using U-boats at all!

::smiles:: That is my political theory, the USA would remain neutral in both instances forever unless provoked, but do you ignore 200 MPPs of convoy to UK? Or do you send out a wolfpack of say 5 or 6 level 3 subs to stop it? Of course you do, that is same thing as having her an active Power really

[JerseyJohn]

I agree completely with Arado's take on the USA and Europe. The United States was never voluntarily entering either war.

Japan could have invaded anything other than the Phillipines or any other American protectorate and the United States would have stayed out of it.

In Europe what possible justification could have been offered?

Regarding the WWII Lusitania, German U-boats already sank two U. S. destroyers and the only public outcry was against Roosevelt for having the USN putting it's ships at risk. Same in the Pacific, two U. S. gunboats sunk in China and the outcry was what were they doing there in the first place?

I've never had any objection to the idea of Stalin launching a preemptive war starting in 42, but much more likely in 1943. What I do object to, though, is the army that would have been available.

The Red Army invading Germany (occupied western Poland & East Prussia) would have been slow and with a poorly prepared supply base and not overly effective against the Germans.

Back to the old Blues and Reds issue, the Soviet Army improved because of it's disassters in Barbarossa, so it was able to fight effectively when it took the offensive later on.

But if it launches an invasion before being shown it's deficience with million of casualties, it should be a WWI type army.

I think this can only be solved by having two sets of units for the USSR. One prior to the first six months of war with Germany, and one to replace it afterwards.

[AZGungHo]

You are right about the state of the Soviet Army John. Not only did they learn from all their bloody failures against the Germans, they also profited greatly from Lend Lease.

Without all the trucks, jeeps, planes, etc. that that the US sent them, they would have never been able to carry out the highly mobile offensives they did in 44-45.

So, two sets of units, or perhaps some stiff penalties in research might be in order.

[Blashy]

I don't find this necessary for Russia.

Why? Because if they did go to war in 1942-43 they are too many "what ifs" too simply say they would still have the same setup.

They would have had 1-2 years to see how the German military was doing and could have learned from this.. That is just one example.

Indeed Lend Lease is what permitted them to outproduce Germany in weapons for war. When 75% of ALL your logistics are taken care of by someone else's infrastructure... kind helps a little, hehe.

Germany's GDP without counting the GDP of conquered countries was higher than Russia's by 100 points throughout the war, Germany's total GDP was higher than UK and USSR combined by a little over 100 points. When USA joined it surpassed Germany by 50-70%, of course it sent about 1/3rd to the PTO but that still permits them to easily tilt the balance in the Allied favor.

GDP is not a perfect indicator, we have many other factors I'm well aware of that but it does give a good idea that without USA (lend lease included), Germany could have achieved victory as long as their Generals were making the decisions.

My plan is too have USA stopped at ~80% and eliminate the progression of USSR but have them join in June of 1942.

Obviously UK and Germany will pounder diplomacy to entice USA either way or USSR.

Lend Lease would be in effect of course.

Thoughts?

Edit: Total German GDP includes Italy.

[ November 07, 2006, 11:49 AM: Message edited by: Blashy ]