Japan in diplomacy

[vveedd]

Idea is that Axis player has possibility to invest diplomatic points in Japan to trigger War in Siberia. Hubert?

[Retributar]

That scenario might have a problem...as the Japanese were outclassed by the Russians historically.

The Russians agreed to cease hostilities with the Japanese because of pressing concerns on the Eastern Front.

For this situation to take place...the Japanese would require to be able to aquire the resources in Russian territory to make up for what they would not now aquire in the Pacific,...which led to the Americans entering the war with Japan.

That's all i know about that situation without further research!. The Pacific campaign was not my main area of interest.

[Edwin P.]

Perhaps, the US can invest in Diplomacy with the Japanese to improve or worsen US-Japanese Relations.

If they act to improve relations then the Japanese do not attack the US and the US can focus its efforts on Europe (ie its production increases via it receiving a chit in IT tech), but at the same time Russia does not receive the Siberian transfer as those forces are required to prevent a Japanese invasion of Siberia.

So you have it:

1. US Improves Relation with Japan (ie no embargo) = Peace with Japan = Greater US production & No Siberian Transfer

2. US Incites War with Japan = Normal US Production and Siberian Transfer, Increase in US War Readiness

Now building on VVEEDD's comments:

The Axis can invest in diplomacy with Japan to do two things:

1. Encourage them to not attack the Americans, and to instead focus on China and Russia, decrease in US War Readiness, and triggers War in Siberia, ie eliminates Siberian Transfer, increases US Production as resources are not devoted to the Pacific.

2. Encourage them to attack the Americans. This cancels US attempt at brokering peace with the Japanese.

Thus for every action your opponent has a counter action.

Now Imagine the Pop-ups that inform players of what is going on:

1> USA Signs Trade Agreement with Japan (if relations improve)

2) American Congress passes trade embargo against the Japan (if relations deteriorate)

3) German officers staff Military training center in Manchuko. (ie Germany encourages Japan to attack Russia)

4) Axis alliance signs agreement recognizing primacy of Japan in the Eastern hemisphere. (if Germany encourages Japan to attack the Americans)

-----------------------------------------------

USA Popups - US Incites War with Japan

US Congress embargoes the sale of oil to Japan

US Congress embargoes the sales of scrap metal and steel to Japan

US Congress approves military aid to the government of China

US government freezes Japanese assets

US demands that Japan withdraw its forces from French Indo-China.

US demands that Japan withdraw its forces from China.

US provocations of Japan increase the chance for a Russian Siberian transfer as Japan prepares for a war with the USA and counters German efforts to incite the Japanese into attacking the Soviet Union. Undertaking all 6 diplomatic actions will cost the US about 300MPPs.

USA Popups - US Improves Relations with Japan

US signs trade agreement with Japan

US declines to provide China with military aid.

US declines Chinese loan request

US recognizes Japanese control over Indo-China.

US sends ambassador to the government of Manchuko.

US efforts to secure peace with Japan reduce US war readiness and the chance for a Russian Siberian transfer but also increase the amount of US production available for the war in Europe. Selecting this diplomatic option will cost the US about 500MPPs while it is at peace.

German Popups - Germany encourages Japanese Aggression against Russia

Germany opens military training center in Manchuko for Japanese Army officers.

Japan begins production of German designed tanks.

Germany shares intelligence on Soviet equipment and tactics with Japanese military officials.

Germany shares military technology with Japan.

Germany's encouragement of Japanese aggression towards Russia decreases the chance for a Siberian Transfer as Russian intelligence indicates that Japanese forces intend to invade Siberia. Pursuing this diplomatic option will cost Germany about 800MPPs for several chits in this area and can be countered by US actions, at a lower cost, aimed at inciting war with the Japanese.

German Popups - Germany encourages Japan to attack the United States

If Japan attacks the United States then American military production will be divided among two fronts.

------------------------------------------------

Germany Encourages Japan to Attack Russia <> Countered by <> US Incites Japanese Anger

The Allied player can counter a German campaign to persuade Japan to attack Russia by inciting Japanese anger against the USA.

US Improves Relations with Japan <> Countered by <> Germany Encourages Japan to Attack US

A US player aiming to devote 100% of his war resources to Europe by securing peace in the Pacific may find his work undown by the actions of German diplomats portraying the US as a paper tiger.

-----------------------------------------------

Historically, the Japanese angered by US economic sanctions and political demands attacked the US at Pearl Harbor. The war with the US in the Pacific meant that Japan did not have the resources to attack Russia in Siberia as desired by Germany.

[ August 21, 2004, 08:15 AM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[Retributar]

Sounds good to me!.

[vveedd]

Yes. That's what I had in mind in the first place but haven't explained well.

[Edwin P.]

Some more thoughts,

I propose that once Japan attacks the United States, the US enters the war regardless of its level of war readiness.

Japan, although a non-power would have its own war readiness rating that would be influenced by Allied and Axis diplomatic events.

Example: If US war readiness in Dec 1941 is 70% and Japan's war readiness reaches 100%, Japan attacks the US and US war readiness jumps to 100% immediately.

Thus both sides have an incentive to influence the actions of Japan, the allies to incite Japanese Anger and bring the USA into the war against Germany and the Axis to encourage Japan to attack Russia and perhaps delay any Japanese attack on the US.

The USA player by inciting Japanese anger with the six diplomatic actions listed above can ensure that the Japanese attacks the US no later than December 1941 and possibly accelerate the US entry into the war.

Of course, the US player may not need to incite Japanese anger if Germany attacks every country in Europe.

Futhermore, in addition to diplomatic events influencing Japanese war readiness, German success on the battlefield in Europe would also have its effect.

-----------------------------------

Base Japanese War Readiness = 50% +/- 10% due to war in China.

France Surrenders (EVENT) = Japanese War Readiness increases by 10% as Japanese forces move into French Indo-China.

United Kingdom Surrenders (EVENT) = Japanese War Readiness increases by 20% as Japanese forces take British colonies in the Far East.

US Sends Military Aid to China (Diplomatic Action) = +5% Japanese War Readiness

US Embargoes Sales of Oil to Japan (Diplomatic Action) = +10 Japanese War Readiness

US Seizes Japanese Assets in the US (Diplomatic Action) = +5% Japanese War Readiness

US Embargoes sale of scrap metal and steel to Japan (Diplomatic Action)= +5% Japanese War Readiness.

US Demands that Japan withdraw its forces from Indo-China (Diplomatic Action) = +2 to 6% Japanese War Readiness.

US Demands that Japan withdraw its forces from China (Diplomatic Action) = + 3% to 7% Japanese War Readiness.

--------------------------------------

All in all, an interesting set of opportunities for both the Allied and Axis players. They can ignore Japan and focus on building units for the war in Europe or spend resources to influence the actions of this Asian power.

If the Axis ignores US provocations of Japan then they may face an early US entry into the war. If the Allies ignore Axis diplomatic activity in Japan then Russia may be forced into fighting a two front war when Japan invades Siberia.

Perhaps the most realistic use of diplomatic chits?

--------------------------------------

Summary of Possible Results

1. Japanese Attacks USA - 100% Japanese War Readiness

------ Siberian Transfer Possible

------ USA enters war against Axis Powers.

2. Japan at Peace

------ Siberian Transfer Possible

------ Normal US entry into war.

3. Japan Attacks Russia not USA

------ War in Siberia = No Siberian Transfer

------ US War Effort 100% to Europe = USA Receives Bonus # of IT Tech Chits

---------------------------------------

In thinking about this - Why not 2 War Readiness Ratings for Japan:

----- War Readiness for War vs USA

----- War Readiness for War vs Russia

USA incitement of Japanese Anger would increase Japanese Readiness for War vs US while reducing readiness for War vs Russia. USA peace offers to Japan would increase Japanese War Readiness for Action against Russia while decreasing readiness for war against the USA. Axis encouragement of Japanese actions against the USSR would increase War Readiness vs Russia while decreasing it vs the USA. Axis encouragement of Japanese expansion in the Pacific would increase Japanese War Readiness vs the US while decreasing it vs Russia.

Any thoughts or comments? Or is this so far outside the scope of SC that its not worth considering?

Any comments HC?

[ August 21, 2004, 04:08 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[Retributar]

Edwin P your presentation is not outside the scope of SC2...as far as im concerned, it can be included as another option for game interest or complexity for those who wish to use this avenue or to experiment with it!.

The only thing that still nag's me is that for Japan to prosecute the war against either the Russians or the USA...they need the raw material resources to do so...otherwise it cannot be.

I know that the Japanese were getting their resources that they needed from the Pacific Region...but, now if they decide for now not to expand in the Pacific...in order to keep US involvement out of their affairs,...where will they get the resources to keep their Army-Navy-Airforce operational?. Oil---Steel---Coal---Rubber etc...will be needed to supply their war-machine for a war-effort against Russia!.

If the Japanese decide to make Russia the main target of their ambitions and they now stay in China with a stronger more determined presence...to some extent...perhap's those requirements could be satisfied (from Manchuria-etc).

This is an area that need's to be covered by someone who know's how to fill in these blank's!.

[SeaMonkey]

Most excellent idea, but I would simplify it with scripted events. Yes indeed, Japan's entry should be randomized based on diplomatic chit investment. The results should provide for a number of reactions.

1. Japan's DoW of USSR would obviously negate Siberian transfer and perhaps increase MPP lend lease transfer from USA, providing they run the gauntlet of Axis subs successfully and are not DoWed by European Axis.

2. Japan's DoW of USA and UK would not necessarily trigger an immediate entry of USA to European theater. Perhaps a reduction of MPP lend lease to both UK and USSR, temporarily as USA industries ramp up and output is allocated to Pacific. Perhaps an immediate commitment of UK combat formations to exit map, UK's choice, or an allocation of MPPs from UK cache for a certain period.

3. Japan's DoW of all Allies...no Siberian transfer, loss of lend lease for a certain period, UK commitment of forces/MPPs to Pacific theater.

As the European Axis I would like the option, at least for awhile, not to DoW USA. That way the Axis and Allies would be pitted against each other for Japan's disposition based on diplomatic prowess and perhaps tied to Intelligence/Espionage tech level.

[Edwin P.]

SeaMonkey, Excellent refinements.

It will be interesting to hear comments from other members of the forum about this concept.

Retributor, as for where Japan would get resources from: French Indo-China, which it took over with the permission of the Vichy Government soon after France surrendered; Dutch East Indies (Malaysia) which it invaded; Manchuko and Siberia. The key in this scenario is that Japan would avoid attacking US (Phillipines) or British Territories (Singapore, Australia) in order to maintain peace with the Americans.

[Retributar]

Thankyou Edwin P for filling in the empty slots... . That being the case...there should be no problem in incorporating this Event/Situation into SC2!.

[it's Les]

You guys are well researched and belong on a government think tank sucking up millions of dollars to tell some schmuck something obvious

The Japanese were not a threat, the Russians needed the men, poof they appear in the hour of peril and save the day.

It's that simple guys.

If you allow the Japanese to influence Russia negatively, the transfer is either delayed or partially or completely denied.

The US will increase or decrease this effect based on their foreign policies.

I assume the US is the initiating factor here.

Greater influence by the US on Japan means Japan has more reasons to avoid the US.

Which means greater reasons to come to blows with the Russians.

So in the end, it is the US controlling this effect.

A lax response from the US means the Japanese have even less reason to hassle Russia which means Russia has even greater access to those spare troops.

A tough response from the US will in the end be a negative impact on the situation in Russia.

Sooooo all the game really needs is a means to register the extent to which the player of the US wishes to influence the Japanese.

This could be as moronically straightforward as a meter reading from 1-5 1-10 1-100 whatever HC best illustrates the magnitude of impact the US will have.

Of course, you guys could also always request HC spend months on making this a testimony to exceedingly complicated processes

[Retributar]

Some good thought's it's Les ... just please don't come down on us like...as if someone just pissed in your cornflake's!.

[Edwin P.]

Les, I agree. US policy was the dominate factor in Japan deciding to attack the US and not Russia.

The question is how to show this. The discussion above gives the Allies and Axis input into this decision for a cost in MPPs.

Another option that I posted a while ago presents a simpler way of showing this:

USA Military Policy Towards Japan, US Player Picks One of three options:

1. Japan First = Early Siberian Transfer, Reduced US Production until Japan is defeated.

With the US focused on the defeat of Japan reduced resources are available for Amerian's European allies until Japan surrenders. At the same time, US pressure on Japan has removed the possibility of a Japanese invasion of Siberian and allows the Soviet High Command to safely transfer units from Siberia to Western Russia. </font>

• 1946 - 100% Japan Defeated & US Production Increases to Normal</font>
• 1945 - 90% Japan Defeated & ""</font>
• 1944 - 50% Japan Defeated & ""</font>

Note: US Production returns to normal after Japan surrenders. This occurs in a random month during the the year in which Japan is defeated.

Historically Japan surrendered in 1946 and Germany in 1945. In my opinion, the USA if focused solely on war against Japan could have defeated Japan as early as 1944.

2. Historical Europe First Strategy = No Effect on game

3. Peace with Japan = No Siberian Transfer, Greater US Production until Japan attacks.

USA accepts Japan's domination of China, Indo-China (Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia), and the Dutch East Indies (Malaysia). This allows the Japanese armed forces to build their strength for a campaign to seize Siberia followed by; perhaps, a surprise attack on the US. </font>

• 1945 - 30% Japan Attacks US & US Production Reduced to Normal</font>
• 1944 - 30% Japan Attacks US & ""</font>
• 1943 - 15% Japan Attacks US & ""</font>

This chart reflects that fact that although the US may pursue good relations with Japan, their government may decide to launch a surprise attack on the USA to secure its dominance in the Pacific.

It also adds variability into the selection of the appeasement strategy. Perhaps the Axis can expend diplomatic chits to increase the chance of a Japanese attack on the US if the Allied player selects the appeasement strategy.

[ August 23, 2004, 01:00 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[it's Les]

Retributar read my sig

This is the real Les these days no chrome straight from the hip duck when reading my posts.

Incoming !!

No one has pissed in my cornflakes, I am like this normally

Edwin, that might be a smple enough yard stick. No gain hopelessly getting mired in minuate, 3 settings might accomlish the goal as easy as you just mentioned.

3 settings, 1 of 3 possible results.

[SeaMonkey]

Les, your candor takes me by surprise :eek: , not....but to put it into words from a great military hero.....we must be more "sensitive" when conducting war ...Nevertheless I'm running for my kevlar....ok ...flak jacket on....let the barrage begin...or as that great hero once spoke, "bring it on".

[it's Les]

I am just worried that Hubert might go straight from SC right into SC4 son of MOO3

Some of the wish lists in here make me cringe.

The timer one was to much to ignore actually.

Timer? what a senseless waste of programmer daylight.

The ONLY reason for going into massive detail (as opposed to a simplified method) where Japan is concerned, is if they are being actually included in the game.

Not impossible of course, after all HC put the US and Canada on the map even though I think that was a decision error.

The US/Canada units could have just as easily been deployed in utility holding boxes until deployed into the game proper.

Sure would have cut down on the scifi what if games.

After all, the only time I want to tolerate Germans in Ottawa is if the whole globe has been included.

[Retributar]

Les... why limit the game to Europe only?.

...what if the Axis had actually won?...this game is till 1945 and beyond...not just to 1945,...surely they would invade North America next...that's obvious!.

Personally i think including the North American map will enhance the game and extend its re-playabiity & lifespan. You can do so much more with a map like that than with the one in SC1. To me that's not a mistake.

If we want Japan and the Pacific ...thats for later as an add-on or another game entirely.

[Edwin P.]

I think that having the US and Canada on the map was a good design decision. The only time that the Axis can invade them with a realistic chance of success is after Russia surrenders and its more fun with it in.

As for the Japan options, it adds an amount of unpredicatability to the game, and in my view this is the one area where diplomatic actions had a decisive influence on the course of WWII.

Without US pressure on Japan, the Japanese would not have attacked Pearl Harbor, and the US might not have entered the War in Europe.

[vveedd]

Guys, you have suggested some excellent ideas but as Hubert always said – Keep it simple! -

[it's Les]

"surely they would invade North America next...that's obvious!"

Actually every single action Hitler took spoke of how he didn't take the war serious.

Total war was never on his mind for the first half if ever.

If Britain had given up, he would have gladly turned all his attentions to Russia. His ideology ruled his thinking. In short, WW2 was not a wargame to him with endless what ifs.

He never planned to invade North America, and allowing it to occur only destroys the game's credibility.

This is a recreation of world history too eh guys.

If people want to open the whole globe up to nutty geo political actions complete with diplomacy by other means, they really should score a copy of Supremacy.

If Germany had crushed France, gotten Britain to quit and made it clear they only wanted to enslve the commies the world today would likely know history as the cold war between The evil Nazis and North America.

Might have even looked more or less similar.

And I would not have ever expected to see any invasion of North America (for the same reasoning it was never possible with the former Soviet Union to take out Europe).

Sometimes the risk is just to great or the cost to high.

Picture Operation Torch in the bay of Biscay, and you get a good idea what would be waiting for Germany in North America.

[Retributar]

it's Les your argument holds merit...however, i for one do very much want to explore other possibilities other than the mundane.

You can finish the game in 1945...or set the game-limit to end in 1945...and keep it as historical as possible...thats a game that many will want.

I have played many historical games on WW2 and am looking for something a little more (Not some idiotic far-fetched fantasy scenario)...so for me, the enhanced North America map is just the ticket i want.

http://portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;$sessionid$WTCUQHIAAADILQFIQMGCFGGAVCBQUIV0?xml=/news/2002/05/09/wkais09.xml&sSheet=/news/2002/05/09/ixworld.html

http://www.originofnations.org/germany/german_plans_to_invade_uk&usa.htm

http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/policy/1941/411211b.html

"If the Providence has so willed that the German people cannot be spared this fight, then I can only be grateful that it entrusted me with the leadership in this historic struggle which, for the next 500 or 1,000 years, will be described as decisive, not only for the history of Germany, but for the whole of Europe and indeed the whole world. The German people and their soldiers are working and fighting today, not only for the present, but for the coming, nay the most distant, generations. A historical revision on a unique scale has been imposed on us by the Creator."

Does this sound like Hitler's ambitions were limited???...i think not!.

[it's Les]

Bitch slap Retributar for that page widening link

[it's Les]

Oh and stop calling me "its Les"

My name is obviously just "Les" hehe.

[Jim Boggs]

Originally posted by it's Les:

Oh and stop calling me "its Les"

My name is obviously just "Les" hehe.

Just Les

Understood, no problem.

[it's Les]

I got a whooooooooole bag o bitch slaps for you Jim