ukraine joins germany

[arado234]

When germany attcked russia alot of the ukrainians welcomed the germans as liberators.(Boy were they in for a suprise)It was only because of hitlers stupidity and radical racial views plus help of the einsatzgruppen that this didnt happen.Ive read numerous books on this subject & the vast majority of writers felt that had hitler not made this mistake russia would have been in big trouble.Probably another revloution just like in ww1.Somehow add this to the 1.05 patch?

[Retributar]

arado234 an interesting idea based on an actual possible historical reality!.

I would say that this option could be included, however, that could spoil the a-la'-Reguliare' WW2 simulation.

It's too bad that we can't toggle on and off these kind's of option's, that could also work in conjunction with a randomizer if one wanted a possiblity of that event/situation actually taking place during the game.

This way, it would be set-up as a possible actuating event in the game, not a guaranteed happening.

This would indeed add some suspense!.

[JerseyJohn]

Good suggestion, Arado.

The truth is, a huge number of Russians, especially Ukranians, did join the German cause, most of them on a divisional level and officially listed as ethnic Germans. Later in the war, out of desparation, the nazi officials allowed recruitment of those who had earlier been considered racially ineligible (brilliant, ineligible to die fighting for you). Many historians feel that without the replenishment through local recruiting, Germany would have been unable to fight the eastern war at all after the first winter.

See, Hitler's Renegades by Christopher Ailsby.

My view is that all of that is, intentionally or otherwise, built into the game system.

But the idea of there being a massive increase in recruits if Germany had gone in as liberators, looking to restore the briefly independent nation of Ukrainia, is perfectly valid. I second the motion. In his novel, 1945, Gingrich used a similar idea and cited the raising of about 50 Ukrainian divisions into the Axis. I think that's about correct.

[Guest Mike]

They already get resources from the Ukraine - what else is required?

Millions of Hiwis served the Germans in various capacities in Europe - combat and otherwise - I remember reading at one stage they were surrendering to the Western Allies at the rate of about 1000/week from units they were stationed with in France.

[SeaMonkey]

What a human catastrophe there was in the Ukraine in WW2. In the context of size, probably the greatest disaster of all, if you broke the WW2 suffering puzzle into pieces.

Problem is A234 that if somehow through the game mechanics you could get Ukraine to join Axis it would upset this delicate balance SC2 is so close to achieving.

What Axis player wouldn't manipulate the process to get them? Its a no brainer.

Another preposterous Hitler blunder.

[Edwin P.]

I would like to see the Axis given a choice in a way that would not upset the balance that SeaMonkey notes Sc2 is so close to achieving.

Perhaps a choice of:

a. Plunder Ukraine (Historical Option)

--------- Axis gets MPPs from Ukrainian Cities

b. Liberate Ukraine (Ahistorical Option)

--------- No Russian partisans in Ukraine (unless Russia has Intel Advantage), and no MPPs from Ukrainian cities. This frees up 4 units for use elsewhere - except if Russia has an Intel Advantage! If they do you must garrison the marshes or risk partisans appearing while you have also lost MPPs from 3 Russian cities.

Thus:

Option 1 - MPPS from 3 Cities plus must garrison Marshes and Cities with 5 untis to prevent partisan appearance

Option 2 - No MPPs from 3 Ukraine Cities and no need to garrison area with 5 units as partisans do not appear BUT if Russia has Intel Advantage Partisans do appear and this negates the advantage of choosing the Liberate Ukraine Option.

[ October 30, 2006, 09:14 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[SeaMonkey]

On the right track Edwin.

This plunder or not to plunder option needs some real thought and some finely tuned MPP allocations.

Historically you had the "scorched earth" policy, which is kind of contradictory to MPP acquisition.

Taking the Liberation course would allow no partisans, higher productivity and supply for the liberators from Ukraine cities and citizens, logically. (the no brainer)

Which brings me to my original skepticism on how to handle this "what if" and not upset the balance while satisfing the reasonable, historical characteristics.

[Edwin P.]

I agree Seamonkey, any options like this (such as the USA Japan 1st policy or USA does not embargo Japan) needs real thought.

The only viable option I see for this "what if" is if it linked no partisans with no MPPs as it assumes that the Ukraine would keep its MPPs to keep the populace happy, and Russia had an opportunity to counter this with Higher Intel - which would trigger partisan activity despite the Liberation of the Ukraine. Thus it would pay off, if the Soviet investment in Intel was minimal. It would be a disaster if Russia had higher Intel than Germany.

[SeaMonkey]

Don't get me wrong Edwin, I like this premise, its historical and adds a lot of potential strategic variables.

Its just we must create a dilemma for the Axis player with his choices. It should almost be a trade off, sometimes being a really good decision, but with some consequences that could make the decision questionable in other circumstances.

I like your connection to intel levels, how about some political ramifications? A Turkish bump to the USSR?

Come on JJ, this is your forte', I know you can shed some light.

[JerseyJohn]

Thanks SeaMonkey. :cool:

Actually, I was popping in just now because I'd read Edwin's idea earlier and had to think about it.

I don't believe a liberated Ukrania, where there were no SS good squads and where the regime wasn't just an obvious nazi puppet, would have to worry at all about partisans.

-- My suggestion would be levels of liberation.

Axis decides which of the following paths to follow upon taking the first Ukraine city or resource center, and it is binding for the remainder of the game.

-- Choice A: The Axis goes all the way and doesn't get anything at all from it, there shouldn't be any possibility of partisans operating within it's borders and those cities and resources should be exempt from scorched earth -- there would be Ukrainian irregulars working in advance of the Germans, fighting against Soviet sabateurs. Ukrainia becomes a new Axis country and can raise it's own military units. Germany does not get any MPPs and received no plunder.

-- Choice B: A nationalistic puppet government. Germany gets some MPPs. No partisan activity within it's borders, no units raised.

-- Choice C: An Axis puppet government. Germany gets almost as many MPPs as if it just occupied the place, but it is subject to partisan activity several tiles away from the cities, though not in the cities themselves, even if they aren't garrisoned. But pro-Soviet partisan units might come into existence and occupy resource centers and cities that aren't defended.

-- Choice D: Axis does not liberate Ukrania and, presumably, acts as it did historically. Largest plunder, but all the usual problems to follow.

[Blashy]

But was it not SOVIET troops that scorched earth the cities resources?

That would make alot of these ideas irrelevent, no?

[Retributar]

You have an idea there Blashy!, someone is going to need to study up on the real supply configuration's, and then to see how 'Comrade Stalins' 'Scorched Earth Policy' actually affected/impacted the invading 'Axis' forces.

The analysis should go from immediate loss of supply & resources, then revisit the Supply-Situation again 6-month's to a year later, to see if supply is recovering,... and if it did, at what rate!.

[JerseyJohn]

Yes, Stalin's troops did scorch earth as they withdrew, Blashy. I mentioned that, and also that the premise of the liberation scenario would be a war of independence in the Ukrainian happening in cooperation with the Axis. The Soviets would be unable carry out a scorched earth program because Ukranian fifth columns would be working in advance of the advancing Germans, protecting facilities and cities and making the Soviet troops only goal escaping from region.