Historical Perspective-Hypothetical

[Retributar]

I have watched a few show's on WW2 that discussed production.

In one of these show's, they stated that if Germany had instead, invested more research & development,...and then production in the Panzerkampfwagen IV Tank alone for example, that they would have been much further ahead!.

It was upgunned, up-armored with a turret skirt, as well as outfitted with side-skirts to absorb flanking shot's. The chassis was also used to construct turretless self-propelled anti-tank hunter-killer tank's!, the 'Sturmgeschutz line!'.

I have never done further research on this idea, nor would i know where to look to see that if this was in fact done, how much more Armor would have been able to have been fielded for the Armored Forces,...verses...doing all of that time consuming research & development as well as the effort for the construction of separate production facilities for the Tiger, Panther, King Tiger, & Jagdtiger.

Sturmgeschutz IV: The Sturmgeschutz IV was an assault gun produced for the German Army based on the Panzer IV chassis. It was used mainly as a mobile artillery piece to knock out hardened enemy emplacements such as pill-boxes, anti-tank guns and other obstacles. The guns were used throughout WWII and served on the Russian front, plus the battles around Normandy after D-Day.

Is this an idea that anyone would care to explore for a MOD?.

[ October 20, 2006, 03:24 AM: Message edited by: Retributar ]

[Liam]

If Germany had produced only Panzer 4s, I suppose you could say this, 2 or 3 Xs as many tanks could've been built. Relatively, a P4 is a Sherman, not really a great tank but reliable, strong and in large numbers deadly effective. 4 Shermans beat 1 Tiger, it's a tactical fact... however the Germans were building just a handful of Tigers and many were hard to repair and breaking down at the front. The movement they give them in SC2 is unrealistic, it's unlikely they'd move 1 tile per turn!

[Retributar]

I agree with you Liam !.

Hence, my thinking of someone, perhap's YOU to do a MOD on this concept!. What you say makes sense, these large heavy tank's, such as the Tiger-1, Panther, etc...were very slow [Wouldn't Travel Far] and were very-hard on precious fuel supplies!.

[ October 20, 2006, 03:32 AM: Message edited by: Retributar ]

[Colin I]

I've heard this said too. I think part of the the point is that Tank vs Tank is only one aspect of warfare. My guess is a lot of tigers suffered air interdiction or breakdown so the cost is very high. So in many situations Germans had no good armour due to scarcity and given their effective leadership could have done a lot of damage with a few more upgraded Panzer IV.

Think an upgraded Panzer IV with a high velocity 75 mm is better than a basic Sherman, more Sherman Firefly level (for those not in know Firefly was upgraded to 17 pounder gun which was more effective than the basic Sherman gun which i don't think was high velocity). If the Panzer IV in this configuration can kill most allied armour and is faster than a tiger then four times more is a huge plus.

In SC2 would like to see the cost of mobility escalate as the level of tank increases. That should handle the fact that fast armour is possible, heavy armour is possible but both is very hard.

BTW Think the mobility tech is the best change in SC2 allowing us to reflect how the armies mechanised during the war.

you COULD argue though that armoured formations are not one vehicle but that fast and deadly (Level 5 tanks with Level 2 Mobility) is a mix of rapid vehicles with good punch and slower ones with excellent punch and armour. On a strategic scale we shouldn't get too hung up on details. High mobility may also indicate how mechanised the logistics and support is too.

[Retributar]

Interesting idea's Colin I ,...including a 'Mobility Tech!', this may or may not mean any movement changes in the game???.

If it doesn't, then perhap's a penalty charge of some kind need's to be levied for the Increasingly 'Heavier & Heavier Tanks', in order to simulate the extra Mechanized Difficulties as well as the additional Logistical Support that would be required???,...for these Armored Unit's!.

[hellraiser]

If germany motor tech is 1 by default, USA's motor tech should be 2 by default...at least lol

There is a popular misconception regarding the super motorized Wehrmacht. The truth is, a lot, and I mean A LOT, of german units used horses or walked on foot. Indeed, they had motorized units, but no way near the values the german super motor myth assume.

On the contrary, the US army's motorization level was higher than any of the WW2 participants.

Germany could only dream to achieve the level of mobility of the US forces, and even if they achieved that, they had no gas to get'em rolling

Indeed for game balance purposes, it may be better to leave USA at lvl 1 motor, since the distance from Brest to Germany is quite small

[Blashy]

Even with more tanks, other tanks were not the bane of german tanks.

Warplanes with rockets were lethal to tanks. And they were produced in overwhelming numbers by the allies, at least the western allies.

[Lars]

Er, you got a source for that Blashy?

Everything I've read puts AP of some sort as the top killer, followed by mines, infantry and the ever popular mechanical breakdown.

[Colin I]

I also don't think air was the primary tank killer.

[Blashy]

No it was not, but their utter disruption of supply lines really hindered tank capabilities, as well as spoting where they were.

Sorry, should have been more specifitc.

[Retributar]

Since there has been much discussion about the inability of the Armoured formations being unable to protect themselves from allied air attacks. I will now present but... a little bit of information on this to show that the German's were not unaware of the problem, and were working on a few fix's!.

TAKE A LOOK AT SOME SAMPLING'S...

http://www.geocities.com/pentagon/2833/wunderwaffen/missile/missile.html

Now, here is another example of Anti-Aircraft Weaponry!,...in an AFV configuration,... however, i don't know if it was actually employed in any meaningful numbers during the war!.

Here are picture's of the German Anti-Aircraft Self-Propelled Gun used in WW2. [Coelian FlakPanzer].

Guided anti-aircraft missile's as well as a German plan to protect 70 cities with a fourfold belt of antiaircraft rocket batteries...was in the work's, however, unfortunately...the website that had this information is now gone!.

As well...German Secret Weapon's including Anti-Aircraft Rocket Technology!.

http://www.worldwar.nl/secretweapons/secretgerman2.htm

Sooooo!!! ...what this could translate to in 'Game-Terms', is that each Armoured Group could elect to pay for a built-in SELF PROPELLED or MOBILE "Anti-Aircraft-Capability", if and when the Technology is researched!. As the research in this field get's more involved, the Anti-Aircraft-Effective-Weapon's rating could be increased!.

[ October 20, 2006, 11:24 PM: Message edited by: Retributar ]