Minty Posted September 21, 2006 Share Posted September 21, 2006 Hi, long time reader, first time poster. Regarding the long running debate on Morale effects after minor countries are liberated / conquered I think they are good as they are. Whilst I agree it can lead to some hard to reason with outcomes ( would the average Ivan defending Stalingrad really feel a lot better knowing that Portugal has been conquered by the canadians?) my vote would be to keep the present situation. With regards to the North african countries, it would boost morale of hard pressed allies to know that after years on the defensive they can take land now that they have more support. Also knowing that your borders are in jeopardy (even thousands of miles away) is going to make advancing units (or at least their senior officers) that much more nervous. The Axis propoganda machine was relentless in it's praise of the Wehrmacht as it marched through the low countries , France and eastern europe. Surely knowing that the once all powerful 3rd reich was not having things it's own way, and could no longer project it's power across europe, would spread seeds of doubt even on the Eastern front. Even in a PBEM game against a human opponent it is demoralising to know that you don't have the resources to protect your once mighty reich and the enemy is getting closer. From the allied perspective the moral effect is spot on. My granfather was in the BEF and part of the rearguard at Dunkirk (so rear in fact he and his comrades had to find their own boat off the beaches and were picked up at sea by the RN a day later). He told me how it was utter confusion and when word of the German advance was heard it was assumed the fighting would not reach them for some time. It did of course and the speed with which the Dutch and Belgians crumbled was truly scary. The British knew at all levels that to stand and fight meant utter annihilation. Similarly he also found himself in North Afica and finally Italy at Monte Casino. Even though he always told me that Monte Casino was a living hell and that the things he saw there were worse than anyhing previously, by that time they knew that victory was possible. They had beaten the Italians and Germans in the "minor countries" of North africa and their moral and sense of purpose was much higher. The German paras fighting so bravely in the mountains were no longer invincible titans but men who had now ben shown to be beatable. Rambo posted that moral doesn't stop a bullet but in this case I think it helps the troops fight that much harder knowing that they can win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retributar Posted September 21, 2006 Share Posted September 21, 2006 Bravo! Minty!... for some first hand [second-Hand] historical REAL-Personal background on this subject!. I, for one do not envy what your Grandfather had to go through,... a living hell in Dunkerque to start with [Oh...shatter my nerves and sensibilities!], and another living hell at Monte' Casino,...a virtual German Fortress on-top of the mountain made up of rubble from the ruin's of the abbey!. Your description of what 'Morale' is from your own families experiences and personal understanding of WW2 in this regard,...so far makes the most sense to me!. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaoJah Posted September 21, 2006 Share Posted September 21, 2006 The problem is that Morale in the game is too easy abusable. I take Denmark, Norway, Ireland, Vichy France, Greece, Yougoslavia, Iraq, Syria and Iran only for the perfectly-timed morale boost. The first two just before France, the second to help in Egypt and the other to help in Russia. That's simply too gamey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n0kn0k Posted September 21, 2006 Share Posted September 21, 2006 TaoJah how do you get past the RN and take Ireland? Or is that in an AI game? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minty Posted September 21, 2006 Author Share Posted September 21, 2006 I'm assuming he was referring to playing allies as he didn't mention Eygpt. But you can do it as Axis with the right airpower, some good subs and if you use the Bismarck and Tirpitz together. Plus if the RN is split and comes a cropper in the Med (likely if Spain is on board) then they should be neautralised. Best timed just before the US comes in as they tend to get annoyed at invading Ireland and once they are in then the exra navy makes it damn near impossible. Of course if you've had a succesful sealion then it's just a short jump out of an easyjet junkers from Manchester. I agree that it is gamey to an extent BUT if it didn't have those moral boosts then frankly you'd probably never bother to invade / liberate those places. Even places like Benelux might get ignored.If the Axis have a big entrached experienced army in Amsterdam why bother taking it? Too much work.just go straight to the kill in Germany and mess up his MPP in the Ruhr valley. But with the morale boosts you bother to liberate the poor dutch. The game would become very one dimensional without it. Historically (with the exception of Iran and the Irish republic - Belfast was bombed) fighting took place in all the places that Mr Taojah mentioned. In real life there was a political aspect to the war that meant the Allies could not ignore those countries. Without the morale boost it would be less of a world war and players would simply get into a big slugging match in Russia and D-Day. It gives the player a reason to divert resources (as both sides did) to maintaining control of far flung territories. I think it really is one of those features that makes this such an enjoyable and well thought out game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minty Posted September 21, 2006 Author Share Posted September 21, 2006 sorry just reread your post, you did mention Eypgt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liam Posted September 21, 2006 Share Posted September 21, 2006 Morale boosts effected greatly showing an enemy is beatable, but you could get that from killing unit that would be reflected in Experience bars not in Morale... Morale wouldn't be effected "so greatly," by DOWing and conquoring a Minor or Liberating a Minor... Major Nations would effect Morale some, and for Russians? What did they care really? They wanted to conquor Germany for themselves, it effected their morale "minorly" whether or not we did this or that, each city they retook, was a Morale boost... You should cut off regions of a Nation and a Morale zone if you want to do it that way. For once the Russians booted the Germans from the Ukraine and White Russia they went up skyhigh and then 1 year later conquored Germany Now on the other hand Regional Morale may have had an effect. Winning in North Africa was a Morale Boost. Winning in the East for the Russians and then in the Balkans was likely a Boost enough to show them they were unstoppable and the Germans felt puny... Similarly in the West once the Allies had retook France they felt they could easily retake the Low Countries and failed at Arnhem, so beware of False Beliefs... I had a Great Uncle at Dunkirk, that in itself was a morale boost... There are many things that effect it other than Minors, I think it would be neat to see that reflected... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaoJah Posted September 22, 2006 Share Posted September 22, 2006 Well, I always play against the AI (I don't have the patience to play against humans) so I don't have to wait for the RN to surrender. And yes, IMHO it makes more sense to give a morale boost to Russia for each captured German city then for liberating Greece or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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