Siberian Transfer Script should be deleted

[Blashy]

Yes, just from Siberia it was less than 50k troops.

But from anything else past the Urals it was quite allot.

[Blashy]

If it was 30 divisions with one division equaling 10 000 troops of which about half are combat troops that is 5k * 30 = 150000 combat troops.

1 corps in SC2 is 100k troops. So in SC2 terms this is not allot. Planes, tanks and artillery were in the mix.

It is difficult to find good info on the far east.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Khalkhin_Gol

[targul]

30 divisions is correct. Just finished rewatching my copy or The World at War documentary and that is what they say. Also though the reading go back and forth on the subject most agree between 20 and 30 with 1000-1200 air and around 1000 tanks some of which where T34.

The first action seen by these fresh troops was just outside of Moscow where the German General was surprised to see them and astounded by the quality of the T34. Have his quote somewhere since he said it better then I did need to look it up.

[Guest Mike]

Kuni mentions 31 divisions total in the first post of this thread - and as far as I can tell he says that all of them were in combat by mid-November.

So they aren't really the "Siberians" of the Soviet counter attack IMO.

Note that Soviet divisions at the start of WW2 could vary anything from 50-100% strength, and that 100% strength was over 14,000 men, of which considerably more than 50% were combat troops - the 1939 organisation has approx 12,000 men in the rifle regiments alone, the August 1941 version has a mere 7500 in the rifle regiments - but all other services have decreased in number too (except for the bakery, which jumps to 144 OR's from 109!).

Non-combat services in Soviet rifle divisions only comprise 10-15% of the official total manpower at any time - taking combat as all infantry, artillery,, AA, recce and pioneer sub-units (Zaloga & Ness, "Red Army Handbook 1939-1945", various tables)

[Guest Mike]

rgul T34's weer encountered in the first few weeks of the war - they were not a surprise by December!!

And there were NO T34's or KV's assigned to any fronts east of the Urals on 1 June 41 and it seems unlikely that any weer shipped there after Barbarossa!

See http://rkkaww2.armchairgeneral.com/weapons/tank_number_june01_41.htm

[Retributar]

Very Awesome Information 'Stalin's Organist'! ...in your last two Post's!.,...Very Awesome Indeed!.

[Guest Mike]

Thanks - I'd still love to see a definitive OOB for the Sov army in Dec 41 tho - and jsut where those units had originated.

[SeaMonkey]

Yeah right SO...ha ha, not only do I believe that there never was a document, person, or thing that ever knew, .....if there ever was, it will forever be misconstrued through the politburo's propaganda machine.

In short...we will never know.

[Guest Mike]

Soviet OOB for WW2 on CD - the Sov's were meticulous record keepers, and this info is the basis of much recent research.

Sadly it's all in Russian, which I don't read, and it's US$240, which I don't have.

I do have half of Charles Sharp's Soviet OOB's on order from Nafziger tho.

[targul]

November 18th, 1941...German troops attacking Venev, on the southern pincer drive to Moscow, are themselves counterattacked by a Siberian division and armored brigade. These forces bring something new to the battlefield: white fur coats for the Siberian infantry and the T-34 tank, whose American Christie suspension, sloping armor, and 76mm gun make it one of the most powerful in the world. The Germans fight back, but the extreme cold freezes their automatic weapons. The Germans panic. "This was the first time that such a thing had occurred during the Russian campaign, and it was a warning that the combat ability of our infantry was at an end, and that they should no longer be expected to perform difficult tasks." However, German General Franz Halder notes in his diary that "the Soviets had nothing left in the rear, and his predicament is probably even worse than ours." From WWII by David Lippman

I wonder why people have decided these units did not exist. This is just one of hundreds of where Siberians were used. And only one example where the T34 was used by them.

[Blashy]

It is not that they were not used, but in his memoirs Zhukov stated that it was the arrival of fresh troops from recruiting more than siberian troops that were the cause of the bulk of the counter attack.

Those troops had winter gear as well, all soviet troops were winterized, not just the siberians.

[Retributar]

"WINTERIZED"... "'That IS the KEY!!! '". The GERMAN'S Were 'NOT-PROPERLY-WINTERIZED'! . Just like 'NAPOLEONE's forces were 'NOT-PROPERLY-WINTERIZED'!.

[Guest Mike]

Originally posted by targul:

I wonder why people have decided these units did not exist.

who said they dont' exist? the very first post in this thread lists 31 "Siberian" divisions.

I note too that your example is mid-november - so significantly before the December counterattack.

This is just one of hundreds of where Siberians were used. And only one example where the T34 was used by them.

No-one ever said the Siberians didn't ahve T34's - only that there were none in Siberia to be transfered to the West as part of the 1000 or 1500 tanks or whatever it was. I see no reason why they might not get T34's for new units, or as replacements, once they get there.

your protestations are without merit.

Nice bolding and caps Retrib!!