Where is Guderian

[Liam]

Yeah, lots of Men wanted to be heroes in WW2, especially Americans and British. A Sense of Honor, Duty should surpass such feelings.

I may be off, but I have a sense that the Reds and Germans were a bit more along these lines along with the Japanese and English.. Americans had a lot of showboaters, English with Montgomery a little bit of that. However I have known A LOT of American Colonels, Lt. Colonels and some of them were EXTREMELY competent. Meanwhile others achieved rank by Schooling, position, time in service, etc...

[JerseyJohn]

With the Soviets, I think there was a lot of that going on in 1944 and 45, most of it by Stalin's design. It's obvious in the Battle of Berlin that he wanted two of his marshal's going head-to-head for the same objectives but from different starting points. The two armies deliberately shelled parts of the city that where they knew the other army was active. Russians killing Russians, and on purpose. Stalin was truly a madman and his generals either followed his lead, or wound up with a bullet in the head.

In Barbarossa, the German generals also competed to see who could take the most famous cities, though I don't think it ever got out of control. All three German fieldmarshals were very capable commanders and I believe that, had it not been for Hitler's direct meddling, they'd have taken Leningrad, Moscow and Kiev before the onset of winter 41.

In the American Civil War, the Confederacy didn't issue any medals at all. I've always felt that was a wise move. The stated philosophy was that any soldier who fought in a battle was already exhibiting heroism and there was no higher honor to be awarded.

[Panzerkeil]

Those two generals were Georgi Zhukov and Ivan Koniev. Stalin, like Hitler, was one who controlled his subordinates by promoting rivalry between them, keeping their sights on each other and not on the man above them.

[JerseyJohn]

Thanks Panzerkiel.

I knew Zhukov was one, but wasn't sure offhand about the other.

Stalin further played with their rivalries by cutting Zhukov back from three armies to one as the Soviets moved through Poland. The writing was clearly on the wall. After the war he was given a command in Siberia. Well, at least he didn't become a gulag prisoner, like so many of his men, who either made unwise remarks in the closing days of the war, or were alleged to have made them.

Hitler, Stalin and FDR all believed in duplication of tasks either to spur rivalries or to help keep subordinates under control. Interestingly, FDR and Hitler had many of the same economic recovery ideas right from the start. And FDR, in many of his political moves, was comparably ruthless and underhanded, except in his case people didn't vanish and camps didn't fill up with victims.

-- BTW, there's a very unintentionally funny Soviet film from late 45 or 46 that shows Stalin climbing off a plane in Berlin immediately after it's fall. Stalin loved the picture and some say he later came to believe that was actually how it happened. Naturally, any Soviet veteran who said "I was there and never saw him," was committing suicide.

[JerseyJohn]

Continued from above post ...

Originally posted by Liam:

[...] However I have known A LOT of American Colonels, Lt. Colonels and some of them were EXTREMELY competent. Meanwhile others achieved rank by Schooling, position, time in service, etc...

I've known a lot of colonels also and, when I lived in Florida a long while back, asked a retired full bird why so often it was the colonels who were the real driving force. We were talking mainly about political coups but also about how, in historical footnotes, a colonel usually comes up as having planned something a 3-4 star general is remembered for. My friend quoted a popular commercial of the time (Avis -- Hertz rent a car) "We're Second, so we try harder."

Also, it's usually colonels who are in charge of the detail work. Up till shortly before the start of WWII, Dwight Eisenhower's goal was to retire as a full colonel -- so in many ways it's the circumstances that determine rank.

[jon_j_rambo]

I wonder where all these guy's final destination was/is?

[JerseyJohn]

Which guys, Brother Rambo?

If you mean the colonels, one Lt. Col wound up hanged sixteen years after the end of the war, Adolf Eichmann. It's interesting that, considering all the people who's death he was instrumental in, and all the transportation he was responsible for, he held the same rank for almost the entire war.

Among the allied generals, nearly all of them seem to have died peaceful deaths in old age. Some exceptions were Patton, died after a suspicious accident followed by suspicious medical care. Simon Boliva Bruckner (Pacific) killed in combat, a 3 star army commander, highest ranking U. S. general to die in combat during the war. Marshall, MacArthur, Biddel-Smith and Mark Clark were active in politics or the post war army. Bradley became the first commander of NATO and wrote an autobiography. Ridgeway succeeded MacArthur in Korea and later wrote a book about it. Stillwell, who commanded in SE Asia and China, died of cancer shortly after the war. Curtis LeMay became the first commander of SAC and went on to be top US general by the time of the Cuban Missle Crisis. He was in favor of invading Cuba and calling Russia's bluff, but was overruled by JFK. Eisenhower, as you know, served two terms as president, dying in 68.

A lot of German generals died during or shortly after the war. Two of them, Keitel and Yodl, were hanged at Nuremburg, with Goering committing suicide. Rommel, either executed or forced to commit suicide, accounts vary. Model and Kluge committed suicide. Paulus died in East Germany around 1957. Rundstedt and Kesselring served a few years as war criminals and died of natural causes during the 1950s. Same with Manstein and Guderian, who both survived the war and wrote books about it.

Charles DeGaule, who was probably vital to the French cause, but who caused a lot of problems in 43-44, became president of France from the late fifties to the late sixties when death removed him from office.

Most of the Russians, including Zhukov, were given obscure positions by Stalin and encouraged to not seek the limelight.

A few Japanese generals, including Tojo, were hanged as war criminals, but most either became civilian industrial executives, or retired. A small number committed suicide when Japan surrendered, but most hari-kiris were lower ranking fanatical staff officers.

Montgomery and most of the British and Common Wealth generals faded into old age and died peacefully.

Guess that's about it.

[LampCord]

A few Japanese generals, including Tojo, were hanged as war criminals, but most either became civilian industrial executives, or retired. [/QB]

I read somewhere (wish I could find the source) that 119 Japanese oficers were executed for various war crimes in China and the Phillipines. Far more than the number sentenced to death at Nurenburg but with far less publicity.

I have no idea however what their rank was. Probably mostly lower rank prison wardens executed for cruelty to military prisoners and crimes against civilians.

[JerseyJohn]

LampCord

Yes. I think they were mainly junior officers and a few of field grade, no generals.

The most scandalous part was the Japanese doctors and scientists who were covered by MacArthur's occupation administration. He wanted Japan to move smoothely into the post war scheme and, with the USSR looking for any excuse to move into the home islands, he did his best to rebuild Japan as quickly as possible. Which meant ignoring many past criminal actions. Survivors of the Bataan Death March, and other attrocities, never received full compensation because it the United States felt it was in it's best interest to not stir things up.

The part involving the Japanese scientists was mainly in regard to biological warfare. The Japanese in 1945 had enough of it to wipe out tens of millions of people. Last minute agreements sent all of that technology, and stockpile, to the United States. Meanwhile, all those involved in developing it -- entirely through tests on living human beings -- were allowed to pursue very lucrative civilian posts.

On the whole, I think Japanese war crimes were at least as bad as Germany's and probably much worse. One doesn't negate the other, of course, but the Japanese who were executed for these things represent only a small percentage of the total number who had been involved.

One of the reasons so many Germans got off easily was because, when the Cold War started up, the United States completely reversed it's earlier position and sought to use those same people in an anti-communist role.

Also, exceptions were made from the start for those with technical abilities that the U. S. & UK knew would be usefull and also for many former SS Inteligence officers who were regarded as experts on the Soviets. They were being recruited by the United States even as the war came to an end. Many were sent to Virginia and soon assigned to Americnan Inteligence officers in the Pentagon.

[jon_j_rambo]

How about Yamamoto? Was that a ship or a dude? I know it was a Battleship of the Japs that went to fighting or something?

[Comrade Trapp]

Originally posted by jon_j_rambo:

How about Yamamoto? Was that a ship or a dude? I know it was a Battleship of the Japs that went to fighting or something?

The ship was the Battleship "Yamato", it was Japan's biggest BB and was sunk off Okinawa towards the end of the war (never saw ship-to-ship action).

Admiral Yamamoto was CinC of the Japanese Navy. Smart guy, knew if he didn't win the war against us within the first 6 months, our industrial output would overwhelm Japan. He was right...... He was killed when we shot down his transport plane in 43 or 44.

[Cheese Panzer]

Originally posted by JerseyJohn:

In the American Civil War, the Confederacy didn't issue any medals at all. I've always felt that was a wise move. The stated philosophy was that any soldier who fought in a battle was already exhibiting heroism and there was no higher honor to be awarded.

(in refering to medals) Napoleon I said - "With such baubles are men led."

[Cheese Panzer]

Originally posted by JerseyJohn:

Also, it's usually colonels who are in charge of the detail work. Up till shortly before the start of WWII, Dwight Eisenhower's goal was to retire as a full colonel -- so in many ways it's the circumstances that determine rank.

Which wasn't a bad career plan in the pre-WWII American Army. For those who aren't familiar with American promotions, you advance in ranks in a pretty predictable pattern (time in grade, length of service, a few specific jobs, and a good report) until you get to Colonel. To be promoted past Colonel requires an act of Congress (no kidding!) although the services usually present their lists and Congress rubber stamps them. But it is an acknowledged fact that to be promoted to General/Admiral requires political clout and friends in high places.

One of the backhand effects of this system is that all General officers have to be approved by Congress so each service tries to make sure it has lots of jobs for Generals/Admirals that just HAVE to be filled. And they are contantly asking for more jobs that need to be filled by Generals . . . you tax dollars at work!

[Panzerkeil]

Originally posted by Comrade Trapp:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by jon_j_rambo:

How about Yamamoto? Was that a ship or a dude? I know it was a Battleship of the Japs that went to fighting or something?

The ship was the Battleship "Yamato", it was Japan's biggest BB and was sunk off Okinawa towards the end of the war (never saw ship-to-ship action).

Admiral Yamamoto was CinC of the Japanese Navy. Smart guy, knew if he didn't win the war against us within the first 6 months, our industrial output would overwhelm Japan. He was right...... He was killed when we shot down his transport plane in 43 or 44. </font>

[JerseyJohn]

Cheese Panzer

You sound like a veteran.

When I was stationed at Loring AFB (SAC) in Maine, it was considered a great place for generals and full colonels because Senator Margaret Chase Smith (I think that was her name) was on, or chaired, around six defense committees, including the one that handed out stars.

That was back in '69. I remember there were always rumors about the base closing and the argument for keeping it open wasn't so much its defense value, but how much of the local economy was tied into it. Sure, there must have been 50,000 airmen there and around 6,000 residents in the surrouning towns. I don't think that's much of an exaggeration.

Justifications for higher ranks do tend to get weird.

-- Great Napoleon quote.

True, decorations do have an importance beyond all logic. I felt good about the few ribbons I had and envied the guys who had a chest full of them. But what I most admire is the Medal of Honor recipients who say they're wearing it for all the guys who deserved it more, but died unnoticed.

C.T.,

Enjoyed your take on the Yamato and Yammatto. The Japanese actually built three of those monsters. The second, Yamato's sister ship Mushasi (sorry about the spelling if it's wrong) was sunk on the way to Leyte Gulf by U. S. carrier aircraft.

Along with Yamato it was part of the Central Fleet and by pure bad luck received the full air attack. It took an incredible amount of punnishment before going under.

The third was converted into an aircraft carrier, forgot the name. It was sunk by a single torpedo from an American sub while still in the Japanese homewaters. I have no idea how one hit could have sunk her and have read several explanations, mainly that all of her doors were open at the time -- still, it's hard to understand how a single torpedo penetrated her hull when the two battleships had to be hit by numerous bombs and torpedoes before finally rolling over.

Panzerkiel

Yeah, the Japanese made a lot of strange mistakes all through the war. But even with all the information the Americans had, there was still a very good chance the mission wouldn't succeed. A very exciting piece of history. I think Yammamotto would have made a difference had he lived, but of course, it was only in the realm of delaying the inevitable. Still, that might have been significant; if the U. S. could have been kept out of the Phillipines and Okinawa at the time of Germany's surrender. I think, with the home islands still a distant goal, and the USSR looking east, Japan would have had much better negotiating leverage.