Why The Germans Lose At War (Book) + JJR @Armageddon & JJ Goes, Returns, and Leaves.

[jon_j_rambo]

I find interesting, is how this Jewish group has stayed alive. Romans...gone. Greek gods, gone. Egyptian pyramid gods, gone. American Indians, dealing blackjack, wooden gods, gone. Brother, this group is in the Middle East & they are going to get that land (see future for final land grant).

Israel should be worth more in SC-2, but it didn't get fixed up with irrigation until 1948. That little 6-day war was INCREDIBLE! Defeating all those enemies!

This thread started out with "Why Germans lose". Well, lets add, don't mess with the Choosen. Don't mess with Uncle Sam. We stopped them cold in front of Paris in WW-1. We stopped them again in WW-2.

Time for a Bagel, Blashy...unless that ain't real either.

[xwormwood]

Originally posted by JerseyJohn:

A woman, one of Eva Braun's friends, telling Hitler about things she'd seen in Holland. Hitler said nothing to her, but she was afterwards barred from seeing him.

This woman was Henriette von Schirach, the wife of HJ-Leader Baldur von Schirach.

"In der Nacht zum Karfreitag 1943 sprach Henriette von Schirach auf dem Berghof Hitler auf die Judendeportationen in Holland an. Ihre Kritik an Hitlers Holocaust an den Juden fand bei den Nazis wenig Gefallen. Joseph Goebbels notierte 1943 in sein Tagebuch, dass „die Schirachs ihr Mitgefühl erst entdeckt hätten, nachdem fast 60.000 Juden gleichsam vor ihrer Haustür deportiert worden seien.“ (de.wikipedia)

This couple must have had at least a bit common sense, even though they were serving and fullfilling the complete evil:

"Later during the war [baldur] von Schirach pleaded for a moderate treatment of the eastern European peoples and criticized the conditions in which Jews were being deported. He fell into disfavor in 1943, but remained at his post" (en.wikipedia)

By the way: even while Hitler was to a vey certain degree mad, he was surely not dumb.

About 20 years ago i met an architect in the black forest who built several buildings in the 1930s in Munich. At least at one occasion (can't remember it exactly, too long ago) Hitler visited him and spoke with him about architecture.

This gentle and christian old man told me, that Hitler was many things, but surely he wasn't stupid but well educated and sharp, at least when it came to architecture.

[Ottosmops]

@ Rambo,

Did you ever consider the theory that Patton = Jesus?

[xwormwood]

Originally posted by jon_j_rambo:

We stopped them cold in front of Paris in WW-1.

Even though i agree with much you have written here:

this "stopped them cold" is - well - tendential rubbish.

[Ottosmops]

@ Rambo,

it seems that you have a superstitious belief in some prophecies of 'the book', and to support your opinion you use the existence of Israel.

Did it never come to your mind that the Zionist movement knew these 'prophecies' too, and that they acted to fulfill them?

Your belief in supernatural prophecies reminds me of Adolfs belief in 'die Vorsehung'.

[JerseyJohn]

Brother Rambo,

Appreciated. I'm always amazed at how many faith related issues we agree on. Also, took your advice and added a bit to the thread's title.

Xwormwood,

Thanks for that link, and thanks for clarifying who the lady was, it would have driven me up a wall trying to remember the name!

If von Shirach is the person I'm thinking of -- Hitler's finance minister -- then he's one of the few officials of the Nazi regime I don't regard as a sociopath. I read somewhere that he'd meet in Switzerland each morning with with an American, British and Japanese representative and they'd settle on that day's gold value. Forgot where I read it, not sure if it's accurate or not but I can definitely believe it.

Blashy,

I considered myself to be hard on the bible and organized religion, but you're even worse!

A long time ago a rabbi I used to play chess with told me most of the Old Testament is now considered to have been gross exaggeration intended to scare off potential invaders of the Holy Land. I laughed and he said, " Honestly, do you think a bunch of nice Jewish boys went around killing every man, woman, child, pet, livestock whenever they took over a bunch of clay huts -- the pets and livestock especially. No, it was just our way of saying 'Don't mess with us, you'll be sorry, keep away!'" -- I've always thought that made a lot more sense than the biblical tales of mass slaughter committed by the Israelites at God's command.

Not long ago I heard a Hebrew scholar say something almost identical in a documentary; either he knew the same guy I knew and is repeating what he heard, or that's a pretty well accepted theory.

I don't believe any scripture, or any history book for that matter, should ever be taken literally.

Ottosmops

@Rambo,

Did you ever consider that Patton = Jesus?

It makes sense, poor Georgie died for our sins!

-- I agree with much of what you're saying about self-fulfilling prophesies. The whole Palestine/Israel situation goes back to the late 19th century and Desraeli, Britain makes a Promised Land Committment (which they intended to be the Sudan), it falls through and, during WWI, while promising the moon to the Arabs fighting the Ottomans, they also promise Palestine, which wasn't even theirs, to the Zionists, who began migrating there in the 1920s and by the 1920s there was open fighting between Palestinians, late arriving Jews and British troops.

Behind it all there was a lot of backstabbing by the Brits and French in the region (Syria, Iraq and causing the Turkish/Greek War of the early 1920s).

Why would God do things that way? I've known a lot of Jewish friends who say he doesn't and setting up Israel the way it was done, was a horrible idea. I have to agree.

[ July 18, 2007, 12:59 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[xwormwood]

@ Ottomops

Sorry, but this is way to cheap.

Of course zionist knew and acted because of these prophecies. Else it wouldn't have been PROPHECIES but GODLY SECRETS.

You can't blame a prophecy for beeing known to people who lived while this prophecy came true, kind of unfair, don't you agree?

All in all it IS an absolut wonder that there is again a state Israel, after nearly 2000 (!) years of nothing. No other people survived 2000 years withour an own state. Nowhere else and never before in history.

Ezekiel 20:34 (between 593-571 BC)

I will bring you from the nations and gather you from the countries where you have been scattered--with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm and with outpoured wrathy

Hosea 3:4-5 (about 750 BC)

For the Israelites will live many days without king or prince, without sacrifice or sacred stones, without ephod or idol. Afterward the Israelites will return and seek the LORD their God and David their king. They will come trembling to the LORD and to his blessings in the last days.

@Sir Jersey

Sorry, but the bankier was (oh, we germans) another Schchchcjhrlrlbarkbarkcoughcough: Hjalmar Schacht

May i introduce you to our former Hitleryouthleader Mr. Baldur von Schirach

[jon_j_rambo]

@OttoPreminger --- Patton is Jesus? Hmmm, don't think so. Patton was into reincarnation, but headcrackin' for France, nah. They even thought Jesus was John the Baptist from the dead. All kinds of great theories flying around Hey, I really like your consipiracy theory about "forced prophesy". Write a book, and "make them happen". Very interesting. What most groups have done, was try to force time, and hurry the process up. I'm sure the bookstore is full of great theories, all for a cost Things are more complex then humans can comprehend "future events". Having freewill & prophesy is a brain teaser. Maybe all of life has already been played out...then God goes back in time & drops off the ending Twilight Zone type stuff.

@Xwormwood --- Hey, I was watching the History Channel last week. It showed us, the USA Yankees (not confused with the New York Yankee baseball team) being initial placed in front of Paris, where we stopped Gerry. Granted, Gerry might have been tired, but we were the deciding factor. But I'll be nice & moderate...I don't know alot about WW-1, just know about Sgt. Alvin C. York

@Sir Jersey --- Yeah, you get some great first hand conversations living on the East Coast. The West is full of decendants from the Gold Rush, Trappers, Furers, and Outlaws...mixed in with Bill Gate's software industry. Not alot of Kosher. Sounds like you've been talking to some real clowns, that don't even understand their own alledged book

[JerseyJohn]

Brother X-,

-- Ah, you have a good sense of how confusing German names are for most Americans.

von Shirach I knew a little bit about because the last few years I've been working on a series of novels that has Hitler Youth characters, also members of The German American Bund, which was very popular here in New Jersey and also in New York. von Shirach was either born in the United States or spent his childhood here, not sure which. The head of the American Bund, Fitz Kuhn, was born in Germany and won an iron cross in WWI, just like Hitler but I think Kuhn was an officer. I believe he became a U. S. citizen though after the war he was deported to Germany.

Out here I drove to some towns where the Bund was strong during the Depression and tried to find information on it but either nobody knew anything or they didn't want to discuss it. The local libraries in those towns didn't have anything on it either, so I'm going to have use a lot of guesswork. No doubt if the book ever gets published those same people will come out of the cracks to tell everyone on earth that I had all my facts wrong.

Thanks for all those links. I've added them my research folders. These things always have useful information. Will definitely use these people as characters, they're all very interesting. :cool:

[JerseyJohn]

Originally posted by jon_j_rambo:

...

@Sir Jersey --- Yeah, you get some great first hand conversations living on the East Coast. The West is full of decendants from the Gold Rush, Trappers, Furers, and Outlaws...mixed in with Bill Gate's software industry. Not alot of Kosher. Sounds like you've been talking to some real clowns, that don't even understand their own alledged book

Clowns!! :mad:

I think they've got a different view of it, they know it all right, just don't believe it should be taken literally, or was even intended to be taken that way. Anyway, that rabbi I mentioned is someone I knew back in the 70s. He was already an old man at the time and led an interesting life.

I've only been to the West Coast on a few very short trips, mainly when I was in the Air Force almost forty years ago so my memories of the places I saw are probably totally different from what they're like today. I liked everything I saw, but unfortunately didn't see enough of anything to really feel satisfied.

The East Coast does seem to still serve as a melting pot, or at least a place where a lot of people from other countries come to live for a while before returning to their own countries, along the way leaving a bit of their customs and view of things behind. NYC was much more European when I was a kid; a lot of Europeans were moving there all through the fifties.

I lived in a lot of Jewish neighborhoods growing up and later, when I played a lot of chess, many of the people I met were Jewish and a lot of them also German or Russian. A wide spectrum of personalities and outlooks and ways of seeing things. I don't regret having known any of them.

[Guest Mike]

Originally posted by Blashy:

There is not ONE single historical document outside the bible about the life of Jesus or ANYTHING else that is written in the bible.

Err...yes there is.

Jesus rates at least a passing mention in Tacitus - some blamed Christians for the great fire in Rome in 68AD - the following quote from Tacitus comes from the Wiki article on the fire:

Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular.

there is also Josephus, who records many items from the bible in his own history, and the wars of the Maccabee's against the Seleucid empire are well known in Roman and Greek works. The Jews in Babylon are also attested in Babylonian records. And those are jsut hte ones I know of off the top of my head.

Generally teh bible is quiet a good historical record when it is dealing with historical events. Your take on it as the source of all wisdom and eth word of God is an entirely different matter!!

[arado234]

Rambo not every german wanted the jews wiped out.As you said earlier the jews werenot liked world wide(alot of countries disliked the jews more than the germans).Hitler was just able to take a nation(under the right conditions) and drive it insane.Ill bet if germany didnt have the versailles treaty and there was no depression hitler would have been a nobody.

[arado234]

I forgot to add:No fuel no fire.

[jon_j_rambo]

@arado234 --- Of course "not all", but "almost all". In most cases, there are exceptions to rules (Schdiler dude is one such example). Now you tell me Germany attacked everybody because of the Versailles Treaty, gee, you know why that Treaty was signed? Germany's sin of WW-1. What was Germany doing outside Paris in WW-1? It sure wasn't for a picnic. Germany should have just faced the music of their wrongs & taken the punishment. Instead, they decided to attack, murder, & kill. It is so typical of our society to blame other's for our own sins.

"All this time in Germany, and I've never met a Nazi" --- Band of Brothers.

"You fat Nazi bastard, don't tell me you didn't smell the overs" --- Webster, in Band of Brothers.

"Well tomorrow the German people are going to get an education, they are going to help move the bodies" --- Winters, Band of Brothers.

***all save you the typing on your keyboard, the USA has tons of sins both yesterday, today, and tomorrow.

[Guest Mike]

Germany's sin of WW-1.

and what was that exactly?

[jon_j_rambo]

@SO --- That's the problem, even you don't understand the sin. German soldiers in France, it ain't their land

[Guest Mike]

French soldiers were in Germany before teh Germans were in France, and the Russians were in Germany and Austria Hungary too - don't they have the right to defend themselves?

[JerseyJohn]

Brother Rambo,

I love your take on things. Most of the time I can't agree with any of it, but I love the ideas you bring up.

Germany's sins in WWI?

-- Certainly not having troops in French territory, in both wars I believe it was France which first declared war on Germany. In WWI the sequence was something like --

Austria DOW Serbia

Russia DOW Austria

Germany DOW Russia

France DOW Germany

Germany makes the perfectly reasonable request that Belgium allow it to march a million or so troops through their country (past their forts at Liege and Namur) to invade France and those nasty little Belgians refuse so the Kaiser does it anyway on the assumption that they missed something in the translation and those little Belgian beasts start shooting at the German troops sent to protect them, forcing the Kaiser to declare war on Belgium.

UK (honoring an old treaty guaranteeing Belgian independence) DOW Germany

Germany's sin wasn't in putting troops in France, it was in putting troops in Belgium. And I think it was an idiotic mistake as well. They could have defended the Rhine and left the Belgians to defend the rest of their border from the French with Britain not in the war and, guess what? No blockade!!! Meanwhile they could have combined with Austria to defeat Russia at their leisure. But the younger von Moltka was sticking slavisly to the old Schleiffen Plan, which really ought to have been scrapped a decade earlier.

[Guest Mike]

given teh politics of the time the German request of Belgium was not particularly unusual - small states often let larger ones parch through them in the 19th century.

the Belgians were fortified (pardon the pun) by the belief that the neutrality guaranteed by the treaty of London would bring them support and disuade invasion.

So both sides were relying upon 19th century politics to give whem what they wanted.....and both sides were wrong!

The Central Powers didn't concentrate on Russia becaus they believed russia would take months to mobilise, but France would mobilise quickly - hence they needed to defeat France quickly, and Russia could wait.

They were wrong about Russia - the speed of Russian mobilisation surprised everyone except the Russians!

also defending the Rhine was not an option as it would require abandoning Alsace-Lorraine

[ July 18, 2007, 06:44 PM: Message edited by: Stalin's Organist ]

[JerseyJohn]

All true, and a very interesting situation on many levels. What's always amazed me is how close Germany's plan came to succeeding. Then again, the two Russian armies making the attack on East Prussia almost went out of their way to be destroyed.

Most historians I've read feel the German thrust into France failed in part because the German troops were almost exhausted as they near Paris, which seems reasonble to me. And also that the 1st and 2nd Armies shortened their route, instead of swinging wide to the west and sout to cut the French Railroads they cut directly for Paris and were knocked off balance when counterattacked on their right flank, sending them reeling to cover their own lines and ending the offensive, which also seems reasonable to me.

But generally speaking I don't think the plan was sound at all unless, as you said, Russia took an extremely long time for initial mobilization, which it didn't.

-- True about 19th Century European powers often being permitted to march through neutral nations. But I think Germany should have adapted to the changing times and at least had a plan of action lined up in case Belgian refused the request -- I mean, a plan that didn't involve invading them!

[arado234]

Rambo you know as well as i do that ww1"started"after france lost the franco prussian war and had to give up Alsace-lorraine.They were bent on getting it back no matter what the cost.The fact that ALL the european countries had huge armys and were forming one alliance(knowing full well that alling with any of the balkan countries was bound to start a major shooting match because the balkans were a powder keg) after another to try and get the upper hand.Imperialism,nationalism(people were jumping for joy when the war started boy were they wrong) all contributed to the cause.The assassination just triggered it.Germany didnt plan ww1.No one did.I know germany invaded belgium and yes that was wrong but to blame them for the START of the war is also very wrong.All the major powers were to blame and they all wanted war.Well they got their wish. It seems to me that when you put all the blame in the wrong place and treat people the wrong way(versailles treaty which by the way america didnt sign and was against it because they knew what would happen and did)they will react very badly.Force never works in the long run.

[Guest Mike]

Germany didnt plan ww1.

Indeed - German lack of planning is the main reason they lost both wars - failure to plan properly.

everyone did it of course - but the Germans failures weer more spectacular - failure to appreciate that Belgium might refuse passage and resist and that would bring the Brits in is the one from WW1.

WW2 has a few - failure to develop sensible technology advances (ie splitting efforts, lack of strategic airforce, failure to develop plan to invade the UK), failure to go to full war production, failure to plan for a long Russian campaign all spring to mind immediately.

[arado234]

Stalin's Organist i dont think hitler planned on a major european conflict.He planned on having a nice little private war with poland thinking the allies would again back down.But you are right in the fact that all "great" military leaders plan for all possibilities and not just react.

[targul]

Eh boys, religion discussions like the above two really belong elsewhere.

Personnally, I am Buddhist. I believe there was a Jesus. He is similiar to all the Buddha's a teacher.

The Christians believe in Jesus as a God. That is okay by me.

I dont mind Mohammad either another Buddha by my religion.

The important thing is these religions attempt to make you better people. They attempt to give people a long term believe of our existance and why we are here.

People try to turn the books around to support fanatical ideas but that does not make the books used bad only the people who abuse them.

I dont believe all the stories in these books. The choice of which stories where made by man who we all know is corrupt. It is the authors purogitive to emblish his writtings.

So what I am saying is all the religions are good. Having read the Coran, Bible and Buddhist writtings I find them all very similiar. Agnositics and athetist must have a very difficult time dealing with life since they believe this life is it. That would be a horrible thought for me and I piety them. With there feeling that they are here for no reason.

[Guest Mike]

I'm an atheist - I have no trouble dealing with this life being all there is - why should I?

In fact it makes life a lot simpler IMO - having been raised in a fairly liberal religous persuasion, and having attended religous schools both primary and secondary I'm very happy with having made a conscious decision to accept that there is no such thing as god.