Why The Germans Lose At War (Book) + JJR @Armageddon & JJ Goes, Returns, and Leaves.

[Blashy]

Originally posted by Stalin's Organist:

They didn't try to kill him because until Stalingrad Hitler was obviously good for Germany - did you not notice that they'd conquered France and half of Russia in that time? Why would you want to kill him until then??

That does not display how he administered the logistics horribly, sent two people or more competing against each other to get one job done. It must have drove the military leaders crazy (maybe that's why they did not kill him, they went nuts!).

Not following on his plan to build 300 subs instead going for a surface fleet that all military leaders knew was of no use against the massive english armada.

Not letting his leaders follow through at dunkirk.

Not sending Rommel the proper troops in Egypt, had he I can't see Egypt resisting.

He showed that he always made up "half" his mind, build a trickle of uboats, send a few troops to dunkirk, send Rommel minor reinforcements.

Like I said, for me it remains the greatest mystery of WW2 why that horrible at anything administrative, logistical, tactical, strategical was ever left alive by men who knew very well that his decisions were going to fail.

That's my big question of WW2.

[Guest Mike]

None of that matters - they were "obviously" winning the war hands down. The people loved him. the military do not exist in a vacuum.

[jon_j_rambo]

Ha! I finally absolutely agree with Stalin's Organ on a matter! Repeat, I absolutely agree with Stalin's Organ!

Think! We're not talking about looking back in the year 2007. Of course AH was a murderer. Of course AH was a liar. Of course AH was a picture of the anti-Christ.

But that ain't the issue. You think the Germany people gave a rat's ass? You think the General's gave a rat's ass? A lousy Corporal who couldn't paint took the "spirit of Satan" & turn the entire country into a prideful, gleeful frezny! They loved that dude. Time magnazine loved that dude. Millions loved that dude. We're not talking about looking back from today, of the death camps, the shootings, the robbing, the raping.

If you're some Bunta, you're going all the way with that pyscho. He turned your country around. Sandwiched between Western politics & Commies...Hell (Heaven), everybody was kissing that guy.

Therefore, why question him in 1936? 1937? 1938? 1939? 1940? 1941? 1942? 1943?

Seriously? Why question your "anti-Christ Savior"? He brought you out of a crap economy. Gave you hope (false), gave you France, etc.

Easy to look back now. But no way would you question the anti-Christ after the fact, unless you weren't with him from the beginning in your heart.

-Legend

[Ottosmops]

Originally posted by Blashy:

As I said, a stupid leader can kill you.

But my personal BIGGEST mystery that will never truly be known is WHY did those military generals let that idiotic fool live and not simply kill him on the spot and take over.

There are thousands of reason speculated but no one really knows why.

Why didn't the Russians kill Stalin?

Why didn't the Koreans kill Kim Jong-il?

Why didn't the people of Zimbabwe kill Robert Mugabe?

Etc.

Because humans are gregarious animals and military personnel is rather accustomed to follow the orders of their leader then to eliminate him.

[Hyazinth von Strachwitz]

It isn`t really true that no one tried to kill Mr. Hitler before the tides of the war turned. According to german Wikipedia there have been 42 attempts to kill him, and some of them didn`t succeed because of some really strange incidents... this is why he believed it was "Providence" that he always survived.

Everyone here knows the assassination attempt from 1944 with Rommel and Stauffenberg, but there were numerous more attempts... 2 of them already in 1939 shortly before the start of the war. One of these was VERY close.

[JerseyJohn]

Hitler and Stalin were always surrounded by guards, a lot of them, even when they travelled. Also, at staff conferences the generals were disarmed before being brought into the room.

On the attempts to kill Hitler, it came to light in the decades after WWII that Reinhard Heydrich staged at least one, and possibly several of them so he could claim to have foiled an assassination attempt. In doing that Hitler became even more trusting of the SS while becoming less trusting of everyone else.

[Guest Mike]

Certainly there were numerous attempts on Hitler's life before 1939 - as there weer on many leaders. It was an age where that was a reasonably common expressio of political force!!

And he'd made enemies - communists, jews and otehrs.

But not the army or "the people".

He was not obviously a psychopath, and Germany was doign well - so why would anyone in those 2 "mainstream" groups try to kill him at that stage?

[JerseyJohn]

A few documentaries over the years, such as Hitler: Seduction of a People, have shown that the overwhelming percentage of the Germany people thought Hitler was a great leader right up till the invasion of the USSR.

Many Germans, even a few who near to his inner circle, said things to each other like, "If only the Fuhrer knew about the mistreatment of the Jews!" Just as, in Russia, most people were sure that Stalin didn't realize all the abuses being committed by the NKVD.

There's at least one instance of ordinary people trying to tell Hitler about the crimes being committed in the German state. A woman, one of Eva Braun's friends, telling Hitler about things she'd seen in Holland. Hitler said nothing to her, but she was afterwards barred from seeing him.

Prior to WWII a few of the generals agreed to join in ousting Hitler if things fell through with the Rhineland occupation, but France didn't budge and afterwards his position was secure.

Anyway, I agree with Stalin's Organist about the army not having a reason to want him removed till after the 1942-43 catastrophies. And even then the few high ranking generals who did know about the July 44 plot, with the exception of Beck, were very quiet about it and didn't openly go along with the conspiracy.

[ July 17, 2007, 02:46 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[jon_j_rambo]

That's why the Bunta Generals were OVERATED!!! They could only beat up sleeping farmers. They loved Hitler when things went good, but couldn't handle the bad.

Guess what? I could careless! You live with the bed you sleep in. Probably in HELL, unless they got saved.

Whether it was SS, German regular, Hitler Youth, or whatever...when you are invaded by Buntas, you fight back.

[JerseyJohn]

What does any of that have to do with what we were talking about?

Absolutely nothing.

The only reason the SS was mentioned is because Hitler surrounded himself with a very large SS security force. Officers attending the staff meetings had to drive several miles through checkpoints before reaching the bunker and were disarmed along the way. There was no opportunity to go anywhere near Hitler with a weapon so there was no opportunity at all to kill him. After Stauffenberg blew the only chance it wasn't even possible to carry a satchel unless that too had been opened and checked.

As far as the generals turning on him when the war went wrong, no, it was much more complicated than that and, in large part, not even the same generals -- Hitler sacked and even killed a bunch of them, which you never mention.

The rest is nonsense. Of course Germany wasn't right to invade anyone, who the hell said they were?

[arado234]

JJr when your invaded by ANYONE you fight back.

[arado234]

Stalin's Organist how can you say hitler wasnt wacked out from the beginning?Have you read mein kampf(my kamping trip LOL)?Hitler,drexler,hess etc,were all nuts.ANYONE bent on trying to take over the world is nuts.The german masses maynot have known about his intentions like you say but hitler himself knew.WACKO

[JerseyJohn]

Arado,

Hitler was probably unbalanced as a child, he was very affected by the death of his brother.

Later he was pushed further by the death of his mother under an agonizing treatment that he insisted upon. It was performed by a Vienese Jewish doctor who survived WWII and the Holocaust. He said a half century afterwards that Hitler was a very polite young man. That he'd advised against the radical treatment and Hitler said he wanted it becuase he felt it was his mother's only hope. Afterwards the doctor said he was sorry she suffered so badly. Hitler thanked him and said it wasn't his fault she'd suffered, but his own for insisting on the treatment. Many have later speculated that he later mulled this over and the fact his mother's doctor was Jewish became the key factor in his hatred for the Jews. But the doctor said he had no sense of anti-Semitism in him.

Finally, four years in the trenches and being gassed may well have driven him over the edge. The odds of surviving almost the entire war at the front were extremely small. I remember reading that Hitler's regiment had to be put together again at least twice because it was so badly depleted, but Hitler survived all the way through.

Never heard Mein Kampf, translated as My Camping Trip before, but it has a humorous irony to it. -- what gets me about it being such an awful book is it was a group effort; I guess it could be said that nobody could write something so terrible alone.

Even members of the Nazi Party used to joke about how they'd buy the two volumes (the way it was printed in Germany during the 1930s) and put it in open view so anyone who entered the house could see it on display, but they always said that they couldn't manage to read it.

[arado234]

Yes jersey i read about how at first(in mein kampf)where he wasnt anti-semitic but as you read on as you well know he starts to loose it.From what i can remember from the book he really did sound VERY confused.Maybe his mothers death and the way he was treated as a young child had something to do with it(no im not trying to justify what he did).He also had syphilis(which he caught about 1908)A good web site to visit is:www.kimel.net/syphilitic.html

[JerseyJohn]

Thanks Arado, I'm going to check it out.

By trying to understand people who did, or do, hideous things, even those like Hitler, Stalin and others who have the blood of millions on their hands, I don't think we're so much justifying their acts as saying they're people who were twisted by the events in their lives into becoming either sociopathic or psycopaths. I'm not a psychologist, but it seems to me that if a person is beyond controling their worst impulses then it's hard to condemn them. The only worthwhile thing is to study how people like that end up controling countries.

From what I can see they work their way in through people who believe they can use them, keep them under control, and it ends up that they can't be controled.

Sadaam Hussein had a similar rise to power, the sort of person who plays the role of servant till it's time to take control from the master.

-- In addition to syphallus Hitler had a number of other medical problems, along with really bad teeth that were mainly pulled out by the thirties and he was in constant pain. And then there was the quack Doctor Morell with his daily witch's brew of assorted narcotics and outright garbage. From about 1938 onwards Hitler received ever increasing dosages of Morell's secret remedies and, not surprisingly, became less rational all the time.

[jon_j_rambo]

Adolf had some other issues. Upon his 21st birthday, he went out for some drinks. He was trying to work the room & the ladies. When accidently, he bumped in to a Hebrew. They had a conversation about circumcism. After a heated discussion, his size 7.5 shoe size just didn't cut the mustard...the local frolins (Helda & Hilga) giggled. Little Bunta Adolf never forget & certainly couldn't forgive.

Patton wore a 13,

-Legend 12.5

[Guest Mike]

Originally posted by arado234:

Stalin's Organist how can you say hitler wasnt wacked out from the beginning?Have you read mein kampf(my kamping trip LOL)?Hitler,drexler,hess etc,were all nuts.ANYONE bent on trying to take over the world is nuts.The german masses maynot have known about his intentions like you say but hitler himself knew.WACKO

I didn't say he wasn't wacked out.

I said he wasn't obviously a psychopath - this is the time when phrenology was still acceptable, and the KKK had millions of members and almost had a candidate fo the presidency. anti-semitism was the norm all over Europe, including France, Poland and the UK, and also in the USA - when Henry Ford serialised the Protocols of hte Elders of Zion in his newspaper, when many blamed Jews for the depression.

there was nothing particularly unusual about hitler's anti-semitism, nor his nationalism, in the 1930's.

[jon_j_rambo]

Once again, Stalin's Organ is right. Jews weren't stuff in the ovens in the USA, but they weren't playing golf at the local country club. Church membership cards were required to join them. This was true into the 1990's when the last one was protested by Tom Watson, who is married to a Jew.

The Jew has had a rough time ever since the cruicifixion of Jesus Christ. How does this relate to SC-2? Simple, it motivated the Germans.

Why do people hate the Jews? Simple, kill them, you've killed their God. They are the most fancinating group around. After exile for 2000 years from their land, they are back, total of 4000 years. All foretold...the covenant, the new, the scatter, now the gather, then the remnant.

[JerseyJohn]

Actually, the Jews had a hard time long before the crucifiction of Jesus.

There was something earlier today about how the medeival Catholic Church modelled it's imagery of Satan after Jewish features, or at least the stereotypes. At one point it listed both the Torah and Koran as blasphemus books. Protestants usually say they have nothing to do with the Catholic Church, which I find ridiculous as it's their root religion, but in any case I think a lot of the same prejudices were carried along.

Henry Ford was completely open about being an anti-Semite and even made it policy in his companies to not hire Jews. Hitler sent feelers out to him but Ford wasn't a Nazi.

-- As for Hitler and insanity, a lot of insame men emerged from WWI. As he rose to power Hitler drew those closest to him that shared his own twisted outlook, no great trick to that. There were also fascists in UK, France, and of course Italy and Spain.

The key to all of this is determining when Hitler ceased being rational enough to effectively rule his country and turned into a decidedly irrational person and leader. My feeling is he began losing control shortly before the Munich Conference and was definitely insane by 1941. I'm not saying this because that's when he began making mistakes, he made plenty of mistakes before that and didn't start paying for them till the first Russian winter. I'm saying 1941 because from then on he becomes more meglomaniacal and constantly more self-destructive. Also, as his fortunes spiralled downward he sets his sights on exterminating the Jews and other groups he personally hated. The Hollocaust didn't become official Nazi policy till early 1942, at the Wansee Conference.

[Iron Ranger]

Insane or suffering from some kind of sickness? Ever seen the video of him at a Swedish diplomatic meeting? Parkisens (sp) or untreated siphilics (sp) is what reports in the last 5 years have been saying.

[Guest Mike]

It's really weird that Christianity for so long "blamed" Jews for killing Christ.....when if it wasn't for that Christianity would not have existed - his dying "for our sins" is a basic tenent of all versions the faith AFAIK.

[JerseyJohn]

Iron Ranger,

I think that was footage of Hitler in Finland with Mannerheim, not sure if it was 1942 or 43, the meeting where the two of them were secretly taped by a Finnish radio technician. Hitler as seen through footage and still photos from the early 1930s thru the end of the war gradually turns into a physical wreck, slowly losing physical abilities and becoming stooped like an old man even though he was only in his early 50s.

Of course it's normal for people in high stress situations to age quickly, it happened to Abraham Lincoln, Woodrow Wilson and FDR while in office, but in Hitler's case, as well as FDR's, the deterioration was accellerated due to illness. Hitler made things worse with his quack doctor Morell making him a drug addict.

-- There are a couple of good documentaries on this. One was shown here on The Discovery Health Channel about Hitler's medical condition in general, and the other was shown on the History Channel, called, High Hitler, about his so called treatments as administered by Morell.

Stalin's Organist,

I've always found that confusing too, especially in that the Catholic Church, and presumably all or most Protestants, use the Old Testament as part of their scripture. Also, the premise that Jesus was himself a Jew, so how can it make sense to accept Jesus as the son of God, along with ancient Hebrew prophets like Moses, while condemning all the other Jews who have ever lived? Very senseless reasoning.

I suspect the roots of this go back not to the Crucifiction but to Medieval Italian popes plundering Jewish merchants and giving every advantage to Christians loyal to the Papacy.

[jon_j_rambo]

@Stalin's Organ & Sir Jersey --- Once again you both are right. Well, you are saying what the Bible says. No man killed Jesus, he laid down his life willingly. The Nation of Israel "lifted up their voice as one, saying we will not have this man to reigh over us, give us Barrabas".

@Sir Jersey --- You are correct, their troubles were way before that. Getting stuck in Egypt for a few hundred years was just the beginning. Jacob's Trouble will happen again.

[Blashy]

JJR, what that "jews" supposedly said is ONLY in the bible AND the bible is a work of fiction.

There is not ONE single historical document outside the bible about the life of Jesus or ANYTHING else that is written in the bible.

But, there are many historical records about religions 1500+ years BC describing the EXACT same things that occurred in the bible. The difference is they never tried to make it looks is if it was actual history, they were stories written to help people in their spiritual discovery.

Name ANY of the major events in the bible and I can point to a much older time when that exact same story was told.

So slamming the jews for a story that has no other evidence outside a work of fiction is none sense.

[jon_j_rambo]

@Blashy --- Really? Nearly every culture on this planet knows there was a Great Flood. The fact we have so many languages is a result of the Tower of Babel. Go ask the Egyptians who helped built those pyramids. Go read the Dead Sea Scrolls, they've been carbon dated. Open a history books (secular ones), you'll read about the death of the Lord Jesus Christ. If your lazy, turn on the TV, you'll see the star of David flag flying over a highly contested piece of real estate in the Middle East. Go to a law school, they'll share where the majority of those came from. Visit a hospital & talk with them about their history...all the names of the hospitals...Bapitst, St. Vincents, St. Luke's, etc. You ever see those dudes with beards & side burns praying at a wall? That ain't the Great Wall of China. That ain't Fenway's Green Monster. Read history by the Romans...they ruled over them. Babylon, Edomites, Canannites. Go watch a movie, called Indianna Jones & compare that to African history. Ethopia has lots to say about Moses wife, the Ark of the Convenant (I know where it is now). Ever heard of the battle of Mosada? The list goes on forever...Take a history class (secular).

Better, you've ALREADY PROVED everybody knows about JESUS (his time). LOOK AT THE CALENDER!!! It is the year 2007 A.D.!!! You think that's a mistake? You think that's luck? You think that's a mistake?

You ever meet somebody with the name Judas? That name is cursed. You ever meet somebody with the name John, Peter, Luke, Mark, Paul (not Saul), James, Stephen, Andrew, Mathias, Thomas, Jude?

How does this relate to WW-2? Simple, the Germans wanted to kill every Jew on the planet. That's in the history books, unless you're the President of Iran. WW-2 was driven by hate. People who don't like politics & religion, it's because it is a divider. Like it or not, that's the way it goes. The Jews were separated by the Law...circumcism, pork, & another 600+ laws.

Anyhow, the Jews have an old convenant, anybody can have the new convenant, I'm a Legend, and you need to take some history classes (secular or not), and go on some field trips outside the Stanley Cup Hall of Fame.

-Legend