Submarine Starting Position Idea - Pre1st Turn Phase

[Edwin P.]

Idea for the Game Start

PreGame Start Phase - Choice Boxes for deployment choices made prior to attack on Poland, and then a similar turn for the Allies before the Normal turn starts.

Axis Choices:

1.) Allow the Axis player before his first turn starts to select one of 3 starting positions for his subs in the Atlantic. (North, Mid, or South Atlantic)

2.) Also allow him to select before his first turn starts whether he starts the game with 2 subs in the Atlantic or 3 subs in the Atlantic (and one less in the Baltic).

This would make the sub hunt in the Atlantic more interesting and no longer the easy kill it currently is while preserving game balance.

Allied Choices

1) Selects initial convoy route

[ April 27, 2004, 01:44 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[KDG]

I believe the larger ocean, along with silent running will make the initial sub hunt in SC2 more difficult.

[Bill101]

Good idea Edwin.

Alternatively, random starting positions for all three (within certain areas, of course) would work too. Whichever method is used, it would be better than the current standard set up.

But then maybe we've all been doing it wrong in SC1. A house rule allowing the axis player to place their subs in a different position using the editor shouldn't be beyond us, but I'm not aware that anyone's done it. I'd never thought of it before now, but it's so easy really.

[ April 27, 2004, 01:31 PM: Message edited by: Bill101 ]

[pzgndr]

There really wasn't a good historical basis for starting 2 subs in the Atlantic in 1939 in SC1. Because of map limitations and problems breaking out into the Atlantic, it made some sense to start a couple out there.

For SC2 with the North Sea lanes open, there's no compelling reason to impose this artificial constraint. It clearly shifts the early naval battles (if any) to the North Sea and North Atlantic. No longer will the Allies be able to simply hunt down the 2 starting subs, find them and kill them, and then swing the entire French and British fleets to the Med to find and kill the Italian fleet before the French go away.

Now the German sub commandant can hold back his wolfpacks and wait for the right opportunity to unleash his fury. And where will the Royal Navy be when that happens??

[Blashy]

Being an ex submariner myself, I really hope they can be used to their full power.

If subs are played right, you can say bye bye to the US and UK landing in France.

IF they are played properly and have the proper benefits implemented in the game.

[pzgndr]

IF they are played properly and have the proper benefits implemented in the game.

Well ... don't expect those Level 5 U-boats to have nuclear power and ICBMs.

I think it IS fair to say that you can expect more cat & mouse games in the bigger Atlantic. And with the unit customization possible with unit builds and upgrades, you could focus ASW upgrades on Cruisers to serve as sub-hunters while the big gun BBs get the gun laying radar upgrades for the serious naval battles and shore bombardments. So that should add something to the game.

As for subs, sub attack and sub defense are going to be new combat types. The whole naval combat system will have naval/carrier/sub types where before everything was just one naval type. This provides a lot more flexibility and the opportunity to fine tune those little differences we wish we had in SC1. So expect some changes for the better. :cool:

[Blashy]

I served on diesel subs, Oberon class, 1960's.

Pretty similar to WW2 subs.

Diesel subs are lethal, one measly old boat sank 2 state of art warships and their tanker in sims without ever being detected.

And we had a square mile limit that we worked in as well we also had to snort within a 4 hour period for 30 minutes. This info the enemy had and we still got them.

Nothing is more lethal than a sub and subs should start at L3 tech in SC just to give them proper credit.

Sure 100s were sank in WW2, but lets not forget a Madman was directing the Germans and still, they did a huge amount of damage.

[pzgndr]

Nothing is more lethal than a sub and subs should start at L3 tech in SC just to give them proper credit.

No question about lethality. But early sub doctrine and torpedo problems limited their initial effectiveness. Germany should start with about L1 and have room for improvement over the course of the war. With new sub attack values in SC2, we should be able to give credit where credit is due.

[reiver]

Bill101

Good idea for a house rule - I am sick of just losing my subs within a couple of turns, must try that.

Regards

:cool: