The AI & Submarines

[Edwin P.]

I have talked about the AI using Bombers and Diplomacy, so now its time to offer some ideas on the use of submarines, though HC has probably thought of these ideas before, weighed them carefully and .............

First, note how there is more than one merchant ship convoy route on the map. Many targets.

Second, note the Middle East transit tiles at the map bottom.

This got me to thinking about what if the Axis AI occassionally decided to interdict these two areas instead of remaining in the North Atlantic all the time.

Perhaps it moves to the South Atlantic to await transports coming or going to the Middle East.

Or perhaps it strikes a merchant shipping route, moves off and then returns to strike it again.

[John DiFool the 2nd]

I also hope there's a "Murmansk Run" route when

Lend Lease becomes operational. This is the part

of the game which has me the most intrigued (and the

most worried...).

[Retributar]

Good ideas from the both of you!,...if this keeps up and even some or enough of these ideas are used/implemented from this forum...we will have the 'WARGAME OF THE CENTURY' right from here!!!.

[SeaMonkey]

Good point Edwin, but I believe that S.Atlantic interdiction strategy may need a southerly base for support, like Gibraltar, or the Canaries. Maybe even the Azores.

Those subs will have to replenish from time to time as we know what happens to units with low supply and readiness.

Never the less, with an astute Axis player gunning for the Med, and Mideast, the interruption of the flow of combat units from the UK to those regions sounds like a viable strategy.

You know come to think of it, that SC feature(operating) of moving Air units from UK to the Mideast always seemed a bit unrealistic to me.

Perhaps I'm wrong and there was an air link path (excluding CV ferry)for flying units to the NA desert other than transport around the Cape.

Anyway it would be interesting if the Axis player could interdict that operating of air units to North Africa, as well as the ground units.

[SeaMonkey]

Just to add a little fuel to Edwin's premise. It seems there were quite a few, around 100, sinkings of Allied Merchant vessels in the vicinity of South Africa.

An interesting tidbit, on the east side of the African continent the Japanese subs were kind of active also, accounting for around 10 sinkings.

[Edwin P.]

Excellent point on the replinishment SeaMonkey.

I was also thinking about how the movement of Subs in Sc1 were so very predictable. After a few games in each scenario you always knew where they would go even with FOW on.

In Sc2 I would like to see this movement pattern randomized.

Example: In Sc1 the 2 subs in the North Atlantic would always move NE.

more on this later....

[John DiFool the 2nd]

I would like to see the START locations randomized

(or pre-selected by the player). Could never

figure out why you guys in SC1 never did that...

[Edwin P.]

1. There is a Murmansk convoy route and the western allies can decide how much MPPs go to Russia, as I recall from prior posts.

Perhaps a good reason for the Axis and Allied AI to take Norway?

2. Yes, John DiFool the 2nd, let the location of the "single" sub or subs starting the game in the Atlantic be randomized. Otherwise it is too easy for the allies to locate it.

Example: 25% Loc A, 25% Loc B (Mid Atlantic), 25% Loc C (Near Iceland) and 25% Loc D (South Atlantic).

[ January 04, 2006, 08:12 AM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[Desert Dave]

1. There is a Murmansk convoy route and the western allies can decide how much MPPs go to Russia, as I recall from prior posts.

Perhaps a good reason for the Axis and Allied AI to take Norway?

You recall correctly, EP.

And JdF2 need be worried no longer.

Only, it is not "Murmansk Convoy" but "Arctic Convoy" since the destination is the (... occasionally "iced over") Russian port of Archangel, and not Murmansk, which does not fit on the default map.

[... GErman player may decide to send more Panzers and grenadiers NORTH, by way of Vologda, so to cut that potentially lucrative convoy? And yep, that depends on how generous UK can be, at any given point in the game...]

And sure, the small, isolated port of Trondheim is VITAL to the GErman game player, should he or even, she, opt for active shadowing of those ice-rimed transports.

In fact, I can foresee this particular strategy as causing quite a fierce contest.

Should UK player be prepared to land in Trondheim?

Should GErman player be prepared to RISK their meagre Kriegsmarine... BEFORE Bismark arrives on the sea-going scene?

Would that delay be just enough to allow UK to carry the day, IE, conquer Norway BEFORE the GErmans can do so?

And if THAT happens, is UK then more vulnerable to See Lowe?

Typical, I tell you true.

Of SC-2.

SO-o-o-o VERY many choices to make, WRT to EVERY single... action-reaction escapade! :cool:

[beginner's luck]

Now that is something that I think would be a nice change!! Have some subs be a little random. Kinda of a waste when they head straight for the Uk coast ever game. It would be nice to have to hunt down a "wolfpack" every once in a while.

[Retributar]

That's the 'Spirit' beginner's luck!.

[Edwin P.]

DD says "So many choices to make"

I wonder how the new AI will handle Norway - at a strategic and operational level.

Perhaps:

50% Go after Norway

------ If so: 20% via Diplomacy

------ and 80% via Invasion

50% Ignore Norway

and if the UK takes Norway first, what does the AI do?

------ 40% Ignore UK Control

------ 50% Axis Liberation Task Force

------ 10% Sea Lion

and once Germany controls Norway what does it do then?

----- 50% Garrison It Lightly or Heavily?

----- 50% Base for Raids on Artic Convoy Route

------------- 50% Station a Bomber in Norway

So many choices. So little time. Only one head and two hands. :confused: What will HC do?

[Desert Dave]

... and once Germany controls Norway what does it do then?

----- 50% Garrison It Lightly or Heavily?

And so, EP, you bring up another VERY troublesome aspect for the SC-2 player.

There are force pool limits.

There is only so much gained ground the GErmans can cover, garrison wise.

Last night when I played the game, the GErmans got raked over by those Norwegian partisans... with substantial damage to the iron ore mines. :eek:

Let's see... you'll likely need 4 corps to cover Norway sufficiently (... UK can spare this many low-tech militia type units? I wonder?)

How many more in France, would you suppose, with the "Free France underground?"

How many more in mountains of Greece? With those fierce Spartan descendants?

How many more in Tito's Yugoslavia?

How many here, there - everywhere at once! :eek:

In truth: GErmany has a problem, one among many.

Sure, you CAN take damn near any Minor you want, and usually, not a major problem.

But, as above, and as it will be with Spain (... or Egypt or Ireland for the UK) you always gotta watch out for those partisans... some of which appear on board, with that cool new partisan sprite, while others do their sly sabotage invisibly. :cool:

[Edwin P.]

Cool, Partisans, partisans everywhere. :eek:

Historically speaking there would be no partisans in Egypt or Iraq to face the Germans as the general populace was largely pro-German and anti-British, which is why the British invaded Iraq and kept a garrison in Egypt.

And am I to assume that Egypt begins the game as a conquered territory and if the UK abandons Cairo, partisans might rise up to take over the city and welcome in the Germans (but not the Italians whom they did not trust. ).

Via the editor this can be turned on-or-off by country.

I wonder if the chance for partisans can be set seperately for each country. Ie 15% for Turkey and Yugoslavia, and 5% for France. I say this because in general French partisans were not very effective, until after the Allies invaded.

Now that Germans nor Allies can no longer run roughshod over the world and not leave a garrison behind what choices will they make.

It will be most a interesting game once it is released. Unpredictable with many choices and tradeoffs.

Most unlike SC1 where the Germans had a road map that lead to victory - Conquer All (Spain/Nordic Countries/Middle East), Research Jets and Long Range, and then Take Russia by dividing it in two so no units can be built in Southern Russia.

Sounds so good,

so close,

and yet so far.

Or perhaps not so far?

In France the resistance was well organized by the end of 1940. They fought two set-piece battles with German troops, rescued hundreds of Allied pilots, and sabotaged many trains and bridges. Their effectiveness has been overstated in the popular media, but they did hold divisions that would have made a difference on the Eastern Front....

Yugoslavia was the only country where the partisans were able to expel the oppressors. Partisans under Josef Tito received help from both the western Allies and the Soviet Union.... The Red Army and Tito’s partisans liberated Belgrade in October 1944.

Greek partisans, like their comrades in (Yugoslavia), spent as much time fighting each other as they did the Germans. By 1944 the fighting was so fierce between anti-Communist and communist factions, the British sent troops into Greece after the Germans pulled back. They did mount large-scale resistance that held German Forces that were badly needed elsewhere.

Norway, with the help of SOE, organized a resistance movement that confounded the Germans on a regular basis. Norwegian resistance members helped the British Commandoes that attacked the German heavy water plant, vital to their Atomic Bomb program. Norwegians helped locate the Tirpitz, which threatened convoys to Murmansk and was sunk by British Lancaster bombers in 1944.

[ January 04, 2006, 01:06 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]