Free Bristish if the UK falls

[Curry]

This is a very small point. However, I always wondered why in SCI when England surrenders why no ships nor units remain Free British just like some French units and Ships become Free French.

Perhaps JJ or others who know history better than I know this, but I believe the Brits had plans to keep fighting in Canada and the Royals were to be evacuated to Canada in case of a Sea Lion.

By the time this happens in the game of course its all over anyway. But still I think any UK forces in the US or Canada should become Free British and ships have about a 50/50 chance of continuing the fight. Similar but even greater than the Free French rules in SC I.

Again, I know by the time this happens for most games it does not matter. But still I think it would be more real. If I am wrong on this perhaps the historians will set me right.

[Edwin P.]

I agree with your point.

In fact, I would think that UK ships in or adjacent to a US or Canadian port should have a 100% to become Free Brits.

Now the Brits can send their ships speeding to US ports in hopes of reaching it before England surrenders.

[ October 12, 2004, 10:16 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[JerseyJohn]

Edwin P.

I'm glad you agree, I think you posted a very similar thread sometime back at the SC Forum! If you didn't actually start that one I'm pretty sure you were one of the prime contributors to it. Good ideas always resurface.

Curry

Yes, I agree, I've always thought this was a fine idea and also that the Commonwealth would probably continue fighting even after the UK had fallen.

As, collectively, we've all said in a past SC thread, North Africa was predominantly a Commonwealth War till Torch.

Immer Etwas stated with a great deal of validity several times that he challenged anyone to show him an actual Free French Army, or even corps! I pretty much agree.

And yet, there were hundreds of thousands of Free Poles and Free French and undoubtedly a similar number of Brits would have found their way to wherever the war was still being fought.

Glad you posted it and fine ideas on the subject.

But I also think the flip side should be possible, that the entire British Empire settles for terms. In that case a Vichy arrangement with a puppet government in southern England and London, under the abdicated Eward and the Commonwealth / Northern UK under George VI.

Representing that in the game would be an interesting challenge along with a more realistic Vichy France.

[Hubert Cater]

No final decision just yet on Free British units but the good news is that with the new script framework in SC2 a free British setup is more than possible for customized games

[JerseyJohn]

Mr Cater,

You've done it again!

Our thanks.

Personally, the game creating part of it really has my interest and I'm sure many others are also drawn to that part of the package.

[Bill101]

How about "free" Italians? If I remember rightly there were about 5 pro-Mussolini divisions formed after Italy surrendered in 1943 (the word free is in inverted commas because fascism and freedom don't really go together).

It's true that their quality was not always the best, but they certainly outnumbered the Free French of 1940. On the other hand, many Italians sided with the allies, causing a mini civil war within the world war.

Maybe this is something we might want to mod in using the editor.

[JerseyJohn]

In the seventies Avalon Hill had a board game on the Italian Campaign that tried doing this, where the Italian divisions (individually) either went to the Germans or the Allies or were removed from the board, all of them looking identical! To say the least it led to a great deal of confusion.

As these units, whether or Free French or Free Poles or Axis / Free Italians, tended to be organized as brigades incorporated into larger units on the side they were siding with, it might be better to have them represented as MPPs going to the side they're staying with. That mean having it that way in 1940 as well with the French.

The regular air, sea and land units would vanish from the map and the two sides would recieve differing amounts of MPPs; the one for captured equipment and the other for additional personnel.

[Bill101]

Interesting idea John, and not a bad one either, though I have a nagging doubt in my head about naval units, as the issue of which way the French fleet swung was very important in 1940.

Also, the allied navies in the Med got a good boost from the significant proportion of the Italian fleet which joined them in 1943. Admittedly in real life this wasn't terribly needed at the time, but in a real life game of SC it could be!

[Edwin P.]

JerseyJohn

"The regular air, sea and land units would vanish from the map and the two sides would recieve differing amounts of MPPs; the one for captured equipment and the other for additional personnel."

One could say that this was incorporated into the plunder one received from conquering a nation.

[Edwin P.]

More important to me, than Free Italians, would be adding events for cases where the Axis or the Allies abandoned important cities.

Example: If Warsaw is not garrisonned and a Soviet unit approaches within 2 tiles after 1942 then the city revolts and a pro Allied partisan unit appears in it. This event can only happen once. (The Warsaw Uprising) (say 25%, 1 in 4 chance to happen)

Example: Each turn no Allied units are in Egypt or its ports there is a chance that Egypt revolts and a pro Axis partisan unit appears in Cairo. This event can only happen once. (The Egyptian officer corps and the general populace did not like the British) (say 5%, 1 in 20)

Example: Each turn no Allied garrison is in Gibraltar there is a 1% Spain annexes Gibraltar and the port of Gibraltar is reduced to zero - thus allowing Allied and Axis ships to freely transit it. (even if Franco annexed Gibraltar, he would allow the British navy free transit to and from the Mediterrean). This event can only happen once. (1 %, 1 in 100).

[ October 14, 2004, 07:54 AM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[JerseyJohn]

Bill,

I agree, the matter of the French Navy is a very interesting one. Both sides wanted it. If the French fleet, or a substantial part of it, could have gone over to the Italians it might have made the difference in the Mediteranean. Of course, historically that isn't really true. Italy lacked spare parts and other equipment and was always short of oil so it's fleet not only spent too much time in port, it didn't even send out proper renons, which accounted for Britain being able to make the raids on Taranto and Genoa.

In one instance an otherwise fine Italian BB set out and needed to return to port because one of screws came off half way through the mission. A replacement screw was no where to be had and it remained in port through most of the war!

One of the conditions of setting up the Vichy government was to take the French Navy out of the equation. Theoretically all units were to sail to either Toulon or Mirs el Kabir or one of the bases in the Caribean or South East Asia and be considered neutral.

The British never believed it. They insisted that French warships in the Eastern Med either join the British fleet or intern themselves at Alexandria under British supervision. The French squadron at Mirs was attacked and largely sunk in port -- how that action and the taking of Syria didn't put Vicy directly into the Axis I'll never understand. Which is why I don't take seriously claims that Vichy was actually Axis; no, it wasn't!

The French vessels in Toulon were mainly scuttled when Morocco, Algeria and Tunisia were invaded by the Allies. So, it seems regardless of the circumstances the French were determined to not allow their fleet to be used by the Axis.

All in all, removal from the game would be the most accurate historically, but there should always be further options in a game than those that took place historically.

The Italian fleet's fate in 1943 was interesting. It wasn't strong enough to contest the issue against the Americans and British, but contained some formidable battleships that would have been very effective if equipped with gunnery radar. The newest of them was attacked and badly damaged by a guided bomb launched from a German ME 110. It was the first use in history of a smart bomb. It's main significance is the individual attack, along with one on a smaller American vessel, led to quick measures and jamming devices.

The Germans would have been much better off saving their new creation till it could have been used en masse against a large naval squadron.

Another important result of the Italian fleet going over to the Allies was the combination of Italian and British frogman and small submarine technoloy; at the time Italy was the most skilled navy in such devices and tactics.

Edwin

Plunder takes care of the conquering nation's windfall of equipment. The Free French units take care of Britain's absorption of Free French and Poles who go over to fight on with the United Kingdom.

Except the Free French solution isn't quite satisfactory or, more accurately, it's misleading. The former French and Polish troops who went to England didn't arrive as organized and equiped units, they arrived as masses of men wanting to fight on with the British. Some of them may have carried small arms with them, which would generally have been useless to the Brits as their own replacement parts and ammunition would prbably not have been compatible with those particular weapons.

So, in anything above a squadron or brigade level, Free Units were parts of British units. There's no getting away from that.

Regarding the issue of Germany losing control of cities like Warsaw, that's a different issue, part of Partisans and occupation.

By that point in the war, all the origianl troops of the Polish Army who had managed to not be captured by the Germans, were either fighting with the Soviet Army, or had been passed to or reached as individuals, the British (many, but not all, through France in 1940).

There was no formation at all similar to a Free French airfleet!

[_onepercent]

Originally posted by Edwin P.:

JerseyJohn

"The regular air, sea and land units would vanish from the map and the two sides would recieve differing amounts of MPPs; the one for captured equipment and the other for additional personnel."

One could say that this was incorporated into the plunder one received from conquering a nation.

Which is why I think the opposing side should get a random percentage, say between 0 to 20% of the MPP plunder when a nation is defeated.

Argumentation:

When a nation was defeated in worldwar2, the government and royals etc tried to go to London to setup "Government in exile", from where they would continue to organize whatever resources they still had to aid the allies in the wareffort against the axis.

Example: Norway. I belive it is largely unknown that Norway has a history of having a HUGE merchant fleet, that has peaked in size as the worlds largest merchant fleet. In worldwar 2, I belive the size of this fleet was the worlds third largest, after USA and UK (easy to check).

When the axis attacked Norway, the government went to London to setup the norwegian government in exile, from where they managed their resources to aid the allies in the war against the axis.

One of these "resources" the norwegian government in exile had control over, was the merchant fleet, and it was injected into the allied wareffort.

The merchant fleet was injected into the convoy system and played a huge part there.

This is DEFINATELY an MPP injection into the allied warmachine, as an direct result that the axis attacks and captures Norway.

How large this MPP is, I don't know. Perhaps it went down something like this, germans conquers Norway, axis gets 95% of the MPP plunder, allies get 5%.

The allies atleast get "something".

Same thing when the axis conquers Poland, alot of polish guys went to Britain to continue the fight, as pilots, infanterists, and whatnot. The MPP of this Polish effort might not be enough to build one unit, but I'm sure it was atleast enough to build 1/4 of a unit --- and the British haveto come up with 3/4 themselves.

If axis defeats the lower countries, poland, and norway, maybe Britain gets enough MPP from these countries by loyalists, government in exile etc, so the next corps they build, the Brits only haveto come up with 1/4 of the MPP themselves. Something like that. Might not be much, but then again, it might be exactely what is needed to turn the tide of battle:)

[JerseyJohn]

_onepercent

I'm personally glad you went into detail on the Norwegian merchant marine fleet because I used it as an example, telling how it was the Norway's huge merchant marine that help save Britain and it invoked several remarks with laughing faces because people thought I was being facetious! I wasn't, of course.

I agree with everything you're saying here. In the case of the Poles there were a huge number of them fighting not only with the British but also with the Soviets. Stalin, at one point, actually sent a large number of Polish soldiers to Egypt to join the British. The 8th Army contained a Jewish Brigade and a Polish Brigade. I suspect they were actually much larger than the name would imply. In addition to which, many Poles were organized as comparativesly small units and organized within the regular British Army and Royal Air Force.

The one area I'm still a bit fuzzy on is the number of warships or other craft that went to be used by Britain after the fall of France. I don't believe it was too large a number because Britain was at it's most desperate with Franklin Roosevelt having to bypass Congress by exchanging fifty World War One destroyers for the right to garrison vafious Caribean bases.

Though later criticized it was a sly deal on both sides because Britain was short of manpower and able to use the troops that were immediately freed in the process.

[Bill101]

John

You're right that the French fleet didn't actually turn out to be of any direct use to the Axis, but the fact that Churchill worried about it and sent the Royal Navy to disarm or destroy it shows that it definitely was a strategic factor. Britain needed to remove one potential threat to its command of the seas.

I wouldn't want to see any of the French fleet side with the Axis on the fall of France, but perhaps the allies could be presented with an option where they have to spend a few MPPs (or diplomacy chits) to get any French ships to side with them?

[JerseyJohn]

Bill,

I'd like to see them have the option, individually, of going either way. Perhaps have a slidebar that can be adjusted before the game is started with a similar feature even in diplomatic terms to decide which way pro-Axis or Allied neutrals might go.

Maybe have three settings: Pro-Allied, Neutral, Pro-Axis. Contrary to popular belief, the Vichy French setting would historically be at Pro-Allied in that they remained neutral despite repeated beligerant actions against them by the UK. I think it would be interesting to have a setting where they can actually join the Axis if the UK takes Syria or attacks their fleet -- neither of which is possible in this version of SC. I don't know if those historical events will be reflected in SC2 so I'm only speculating.

[Edwin P.]

three settings: Pro-Allied, Neutral, Pro-Axis. Contrary to popular belief, the Vichy French setting would historically be at Pro-Allied in that they remained neutral despite repeated beligerant actions against them by the UK.....It would be interesting to have a setting where they can actually join the Axis if the UK takes Syria or attacks their fleet -- neither of which is possible in this version of SC.

Excellent idea. An excellent reson for the Axis to expend diplomacy chits on Vichy France.

[JerseyJohn]

As always, glad you like the idea, Edwin -- agreed, it would ge perfectly with the diplochit concept.

[Edwin P.]

Pro-Allied - No response to Allied Attacks on Syria or Algeria

Neutral - No response to Allied Attacks on Syria. Joins Axis if Vichy Algeria is attacked.

Pro-Axis - Joins Axis if Syria or Vichy Algeria is attacked.

[JerseyJohn]

Yes -- I'd say those three reactions are perfect!

[Tim The Enchanter]

Originally posted by Hubert Cater:

No final decision just yet on Free British units but the good news is that with the new script framework in SC2 a free British setup is more than possible for customized games

Great news!

Perhaps British Partisans could spring up in Scotland should England fall?