Fording question

[Kuma of Finland]

I've searched and searched but still haven't found a thing. So: why can't vehicles cross rivers using fords? They shouldn't be too shy about few centimeters of water, shouldn't they?

I'm not talking about amphibious tanks, but just regular tanks. Even normal wheeled vehicles should be able to use fords for river crossing as in real life, IMO.

BTW: I understand that steep river banks prevent any vehicles to even enter the beach.

Is this a limitation of the game engine or have I've been complete idiot and just can't use my tanks in proper way? (The latter is completely possible )

/kuma

[gibsonm]

Originally posted by Kuma of Finland:

I've searched and searched but still haven't found a thing. So: why can't vehicles cross rivers using fords? They shouldn't be too shy about few centimeters of water, shouldn't they?

I'm not talking about amphibious tanks, but just regular tanks. Even normal wheeled vehicles should be able to use fords for river crossing as in real life, IMO.

BTW: I understand that steep river banks prevent any vehicles to even enter the beach.

Is this a limitation of the game engine or have I've been complete idiot and just can't use my tanks in proper way? (The latter is completely possible )

/kuma

I don't recall exactly where it is in the manual but fords are definitely restricted to dismounted traffic. Fords are impassible to any sort of vehicle.

Whilst this is definitely not very accurate, it is a restriction impossed by the game design. I don't recall if this is addressed in CMBB.

[edgars]

"There will be three fords; Infantry Only, Infantry and Tracked Vehicles Only, All Units. ... vehicles will be able to cross frozen rivers. We are hoping to have an ice thickness variable for the scenario that will determine which vehicles, if any, can cross. There will be no vehicles breaking through the ice." -Steve

[Bruno Weiss]

Will there be ice crunching sounds?

[YankeeDog]

IRL, there are many factors that go into whether a river or stream is crossable at any given point, and what kinds of units can cross it.

Water depth is obviously one, and as mentioned the steepness of the riverbank can also be a factor. Current speed and the nature of the riverbed are also major considerations.

The type of ford CMBO models would presumably be a place in the river where the water is shallow enough to walk across the bottom, but another factor (such as a very steep riverbank, or a muddy bottom too soft to support the weight of a vehicle) prevents safe vehicle crossing.

As you mention, this is only one type of ford, and from the sounds of things, CMBB is going to go a long way towards improving this area of the model.

It is worth noting that it is possible to have a ford that is crossable by a tracked vehicle that is not crossable on foot. According to the above quote, this type of ford will not be in CMBB. An example of this would be a section of river with a gently sloped bank where the water is about a meter to a meter and a half deep, but with a fast current and a river bottom that offers good purchase to tracks, but is somewhat uneven and rocky, and therefore treacherous to infantry on foot.

A tank or other vehicle that is heavy enough to not be swept away by the current can cross a ford like this, but infantry with any kind of a load (i.e., carrying weapons and ammo etc.) will have a very hard time of it unless the ford is prepared by stringing a rope across the river to hang on to or the like, which of course takes time and the proper equipment (another task for combat engineers??).

Here in the American Northeast where I live, this type of river ford is actually fairly common (we have many fast-flowing, rocky bottomed small rivers and streams), but I have no idea how often it occurs in the regions where the fighting took place on the eastern front.

In any event the ford modeling in CMBB looks like a big improvement. For now, in CMBO you can replace a water tile with a brush tile to simulate a place in the river where vehicles can cross, but have to slow down to do so. It doesn't look very good, but for tactical purposes it works fine.

Cheers,

YD

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by YankeeDog:

...infantry with any kind of a load (i.e., carrying weapons and ammo etc.) will have a very hard time of it unless the ford is prepared by stringing a rope across the river to hang on to or the like, which of course takes time and the proper equipment (another task for combat engineers??).

As a side note, I am presently reading Closing With the Enemy and just yesterday I was reading the chapter where he describes the attacks on the West Wall. Part of that involved crossing the Wurm River under fire. This is described by the author as, "...averaging 30 feet in width, with steep banks and surrounding marshy, low ground...". He didn't mention its speed or the condition of its bottom, but I assume that in autumn it was chilly.

Well, somebody got the bright idea of spanning the gorge with special ladders, so the division's engineers got going and in a day turned out enough of them so that the attacking battalions could cross dry shod. The author doesn't say, but I guess they would have crawled across on hands and knees. Not terribly comfortable, but at that time of year better than getting wet I imagine.

Also, for the tanks, log mats were constructed which could be pushed into place by dozer tanks to provide a stable bottom for them to cross.

Michael

[ August 07, 2002, 11:11 AM: Message edited by: Michael emrys ]

[Doug Beman]

Fordth might altho be platheth where a tree hath fallen acroth the river, forming a bridge for infantry but not for vehicleth.

DjB

[CMplayer]

A funny thing about fords is that HMG and mortar teams will set up in the middle of a ford and fire.

[Madmatt]

CMBB has both the old style non-vehicular fords as in CMBO and new vehicle crossable fords. It is a new tile in the editor.

Madmatt

[YankeeDog]

Thanks for the update!!