Skipper Posted May 25, 2002 Share Posted May 25, 2002 Interesting tidbit bout the debut phase of WWII: "I once again spoke to Mr. Beck [Polish foreign minister] about politics of Germany and Poland regarding Soviet Union... Mr. Beck does not conceal that Poland pretends to Soviet Ukraine and access to Black Sea" Ribentrop, diary entry, January 1939 To put this into some context, two months later Poland participated in german "takeover" of Czechoslovakia. And five more months later was crushed by Germany, of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schoerner Posted August 18, 2002 Share Posted August 18, 2002 Some withheld facts: Between 1918 and 1939 Poland fought against all it's neighbour-states. Before the war against Germany broke out, polish newspapers dreamt of a march towards Berlin and even maps were shown, where Berlin was part of Poland. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted August 18, 2002 Share Posted August 18, 2002 Originally posted by Skipper: Interesting tidbit bout the debut phase of WWII: "I once again spoke to Mr. Beck [Polish foreign minister] about politics of Germany and Poland regarding Soviet Union... Mr. Beck does not conceal that Poland pretends to Soviet Ukraine and access to Black Sea" Ribentrop, diary entry, January 1939 To put this into some context, two months later Poland participated in german "takeover" of Czechoslovakia. And five more months later was crushed by Germany, of course.The Soviet Union did a bit of crushing thereabouts as well. Not to mention Katyn... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soddball Posted August 18, 2002 Share Posted August 18, 2002 Yes, didn't Germany and Russia split Poland between them (Molotov-Ribbentrop pact)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frunze Posted August 19, 2002 Share Posted August 19, 2002 Originally posted by Soddball: Yes, didn't Germany and Russia split Poland between them (Molotov-Ribbentrop pact)?Yes, they did. I hadn't heard, though, that Poland participated in the invasion of Czechoslovakia - is that right? Did they annex territory as a result? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killmore Posted August 19, 2002 Share Posted August 19, 2002 Originally posted by Frunze: I hadn't heard, though, that Poland participated in the invasion of Czechoslovakia - is that right? Did they annex territory as a result?[/QB]I would not call it invasion - Once czechoslowakia fell they took a small chunk. (Less than 1/10 of czech territory) I believe they should not have done this. Germany: Poland did not fight germany between 1918 and 1939. Thats german propaganda speeking. There were territories that Germany was not willing to give up to new Poland and there were about 4 uprisings on these territories. Polish army was not involved! Soviet Union: Just like Britain, Litvania, Finland, Estonia, Latvia and other contries Poland was trying to destroy bolshevik revolution (and get a piece of the action). Polish leaders counted on popular uprising in Ukraine once they invade USRR. That never happened and Poland almost lost the war in 1920. By 1921 Poland again was on offensive and gained significant territory. At that point they signed peace treaty. Poland re-gained territory that was Polish for 400 years... (1400 until 1796 when Poland was destroyed) And yes Poland did owned Territory up to Black Sea for about 200 years... By the way Poland did not fight all of the neighbours: Litvenia, Romania were never at war with Poland. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killmore Posted August 19, 2002 Share Posted August 19, 2002 Originally posted by killmore: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Frunze: I hadn't heard, though, that Poland participated in the invasion of Czechoslovakia - is that right? Did they annex territory as a result?I would not call it invasion - Once czechoslowakia fell they took a small chunk. (Less than 1/10 of czech territory) There was not real resistance. I believe they should not have done this. This is way less than "Soviet Invasion" in 1939 once Warsaw fell Germany: Poland did not fight germany between 1918 and 1939. Thats german propaganda speeking. There were territories that Germany was not willing to give up to new Poland and there were about 4 uprisings on these territories. Polish army was not involved! Soviet Union: Just like Britain, Litvania, Finland, Estonia, Latvia and other contries Poland was trying to destroy bolshevik revolution (and get a piece of the action). Polish leaders counted on popular uprising in Ukraine once they invade USRR. That never happened and Poland almost lost the war in 1920. By 1921 Poland again was on offensive and gained significant territory. At that point they signed peace treaty. Poland re-gained territory that was Polish for 400 years... (1400 until 1796 when Poland was destroyed) And yes Poland did owned Territory up to Black Sea for about 200 years... By the way Poland did not fight all of the neighbours: Litvenia, Romania were never at war with Poland.[/QB]</font> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gatpr Posted August 19, 2002 Share Posted August 19, 2002 Wasn't there a Polish coup that took over Vilnius?Just how much territory did the Poles have to take from the Czechs to make it a "bad thing"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted August 19, 2002 Share Posted August 19, 2002 Cough - I'm not sure yuo can honestly say that "Poland" had territory up to the Black Sea - wasn't it a Polish-Lithuanian union that did that? Poland, Hungary and Roumania all took parts of Czechoslovakia. there is a lot of info on the web relating to the formation of the various states betwen Germany and russia (Poland, Hungary, Roumania, the "Baltic States") and their atempts at obtaining security. There was a lot of natinoalism about in the 30's, and with Eastern Europe being a hodge-podge of various ethnicities they were unable to co-operate among themselves or with any of the great powers. the League of Nations was tied up in it too, and the inability of the LoN to deal with aggression in Ethiopia and ...damn...forgotten the other place....was a foretaste of the inability of the internatinoal community in general to regulate international relations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schoerner Posted August 19, 2002 Share Posted August 19, 2002 Originally posted by Mike: There was a lot of natinoalism about in the 30's, and with Eastern Europe being a hodge-podge of various ethnicities they were unable to co-operate among themselves or with any of the great powers. [/QB]You shouldn't confuse Nationalism with Chauvinism and artificial states made by war-winners with nation-states, where each nation can determine it's own future and isn't suppressed by another. You shouldn't forget, that after WWI, the Allied winners were not willing anymore to remember about Wilson's 14 points - the neglected main point was the self-determination-right of nations. Instead of the self-determination-right of nations the artificial state Czechoslovakia was created (millions of Hungarians and Germans were forced to live in this nation-prison - even the name was a lie: the Chechs were a minority that was chosen by the "good" allied winners, to rule over foreign nations in this territory). As Roosevelt stated long before WWII: Cechoslovakia is USA's first aircraft carrier against Germany. What i want to say is, that it isn't enough to believe the phrases - it's much more interesting and very exciting, to take an objective, non moralizing look at the decisions and actions, that had lead to the tensions and (very enlighting!) the suggestions of the different sides to solve it. But this look isn't very agreeable for the winners and the usefullness-sneezes of WWI & II. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted August 19, 2002 Share Posted August 19, 2002 Err....can you explain that to us a bit mor simply oplease?? Czechoslovakia a "Prison state"?? AFAIK it was about the only vaguely democratic state to come out of WW1. Czechs and Slovaks comprised about 65% of the population, the rest being Germans, Poles, Ruthenians, Hungarians, etc. Certainly the major powers forgot to follow up the victory with a stable political structure in Europe, but then it's taken almost another century after WW1 for that to really begin to take off, so can we really blame them for lack of foresight when that has been the human condition throughout history?? Czechoslovakia was progressive enough so that 2 "German" political parties were in the Govt for much of its existance, and it allowed the Communist party to exist as early as 1922 with members of parliament - they sat ther denouncing the very democratic process and institutions that they were part of!! lol. Sounds like you have a bit of a chip on yuor shoulder on this subject?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schoerner Posted August 19, 2002 Share Posted August 19, 2002 I would never call a state where the nations didn't want voluntarily live in and where they were forced by the military power of the government to accept this wonderful building, democratic. The Slovakians were that glad with this state, that they were demanding since 30th May 1918 (Contract of Pittsburg) the promised independency. They had bad luck: the government of this "democratic" state answered with military force. Therefore the Slovakians asked the German Reich for protection. Maybe you should take a look at the Münchner Abkommen: after the robbed (it was taken from germany against all international laws) german territory got back into the Reich, the only demand of Germany to accept the borders of Cechoslovakia was (attention, very bad!), that the CZ government has to gratifie the rights of the non cech nations. A classic example for nationalism vs. chauvinism. As soon as the Slovaks and Cechs got rid of the communistic system, they decided not to life in one state together. Strange. Not really - only a proove, that this was an artificial state constructed by the imperialistic patent-democrats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted August 19, 2002 Share Posted August 19, 2002 When did "Slovakians" "ask" Germany for "protection"?????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted August 19, 2002 Share Posted August 19, 2002 Originally posted by Mike: When did "Slovakians" "ask" Germany for "protection"??????Are you refering to the telegram presented to Father Tiso in 1939 "Either sign this asking for German protection, or Slovakia will be divided between Hungary, German and Poland"?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhaberfellner Posted August 19, 2002 Share Posted August 19, 2002 Hi, This is sort of off topic, but are there any good accounts of the Polish Campaign? I have the Zaloga/Madej book but this tells the story from the Polish side only. Are there any good acounts that tell the story from both sides? Just Curious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apex Posted August 19, 2002 Share Posted August 19, 2002 Indeed it is one of the overlooked aspects of history that at the time when both Germany and the Soviet Union were military weak (i.e. the 20s), influential circles in Poland, emboldened by its alliance with France, considered adding german territories, bei it in East Prussia or Upper Silesia, or even a march on Berlin. Any practical plans however were forestalled by the construction of the german fortifications along the East-prussian border and the Oder/Warthe line. By September '39, any plans of a polish invasion obviously were boondoggles, still, one of the factors that hastened the polish defeat was that their armies were grouped such that they could switch over to the offense should there be a substantial relief brought about by France's entry into the war. apex PS: Jhaberwhatever, try "Lost Victories" by von Manstein. He was von Runsted's chief of staff at Army Group South at the time and provides an excellent description of the operations in Poland. Seems the english editions are out of print though, german should be available though if that's your cup of tea [ August 19, 2002, 05:23 PM: Message edited by: apex ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frunze Posted August 20, 2002 Share Posted August 20, 2002 Thanks for responding to my question, folks. Even aside from the moral aspects, clearly Poland was incredibly short-sighted in helping Germany divide up Czechoslovakia. As for Poland's war with the USSR: it's true that the areas Poland was trying to acquire were at one time part of the Kingdom of Poland and Lithuania. But the population there was majority Ukrainian. (Some areas had traditionally had Polish barons and Ukrainian peasants.) Schoerner, for those who don't know him, is a Nazi. So it's pretty ironic that he's complaining about Czechoslovakia's lack of respect for national self-determination. I don't think the Nazis even gave lip service to the idea that anyone but Germans had the right of self-determination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poobear Posted August 20, 2002 Share Posted August 20, 2002 Yes if it werent those heroic Nazis, errr I ment politically incorrect Germans those dastardly Polish would have taken over the world! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted August 20, 2002 Share Posted August 20, 2002 Originally posted by Schoerner: As soon as the Slovaks and Cechs got rid of the communistic system, they decided not to life in one state together. Strange. Not really - only a proove, that this was an artificial state constructed by the imperialistic patent-democrats.Nope - the Slovaks had proposed joining the Czechs in the first place before WW1. They realised that they were too few to have much clout to do much on their own, so they figured they'd be better off in a coalition with another "repressed minority". Moves were in place even before 1900 for this, principally from expatriate Slovakians (ie those who had emigrated, especially to America). The fact that it ultimately broke up 100 years alter is pretty much just a testimony to the inability of Europeans to behave nicely to each otehr! Mind you it's not like teh rest of the world is any better - it seems to be a human condition that we have to put the boot in when we can!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted August 20, 2002 Share Posted August 20, 2002 I was jsut reading about Slovak armed forces and apaprently they had a wee border stoush with the Hungarians in 1939 - enough of a fight so they lost one 35t tank. What an unsettled place central Europe was at the time!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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