Info - tungsten AP rounds

[Cpt. Cook]

I am new to the game and forum, so I apologize if this topic has previously been addressed. To wit: a bunch of my Tigers were trashed by Pershings with Tungsten AP's (at least I assume that is what "tung" means - now the weapon of choice of MBT's)). Why the hades didn't the oh so ingenious Germans adopt this technology? Or did they?(I know it was late in the war, but then again, so was the Me262, plus Fireflies had them and I think they predate the Pershing). Imagine a king tiger with tungsten....

Also, is there any better tactic against tung-equipped fireflies and pershings besides duking it out, or slinking around on the flanks...?

token graemlin:

:confused:

[Redwolf]

The Germans have T rounds for their towed 50mm PaK if you are lucky.

The stuff is just too valuable to put into projectiles, they needed it for industrial purposes.

Also, tungsteen rounds require either a discarding sabot which damages accuracy unless you put a lot of research and expensive manufracturing into it or the tungesteen is only the core of a round made out of other material, in which case the tendency to ricochet on angled hit will increase.

[ March 13, 2002, 06:33 PM: Message edited by: redwolf ]

[Dittohead]

Tungsten was quite common in the Early war. Till supplies began to tighten. Germans used lots for their 37mm and 50mm. I think later in the war it was saved for special occasions. IIRC tigers each got a couple of tunsten rounds to help deal with the JS -II.

Also JU-87G's used tungsten rounds for their 37mm guns.

[Gud]

Hi Cook,

Actually Germans did use tungsten core rounds. They were used in 37, 50, 75 and 88mm guns, as well as "bore-squeeze" 28, 42 and 75mm guns. The problem was that in 1942/43 Germans ran out of tungsten supply and production of tungsten core ammo was cancelled. It was decided that 75mm and 88mm guns can handle most of opposition using standard AP ammo, and thus the remaining tungsten was used for ammo for 50mm guns (which badly needed APCR rounds), and few remaning bore-squeeze guns. A very, very limited supply of APCR was issued on Eastern Front when JS (Josef Stalin) heavy tanks were faced.

[HVAP]

as for tactics the Pershing is one of the best allied tanks fielded but an 88 can take them out even a 75, as for combating tungsten a panther is a better bet with its sloped armor. The firefly or anythign with the 17pdr is somethign to be feared as well as Jacksons and Pershings with their 90mm guns. You will find that German armor superiority while true is somewhat of a misnomer as even a sherman 75 can kill a tiger given the proper circumstances. Lead with infantry and identify AT assets, panzerschreks are also good. As to duking it out i wouldt try it outright distract and then attack in a outright fight anything can go wrong so cheat and flank. The allies with hellcats, stuarts and greyhounds also flank like crazy so be careful even these thin skinned vehicles can kill many tanks. go for massed firepower as well with tanks having the same LOS to everythign Hope this rambling is of some help

[K_Tiger]

The most reason why the germans use only AP ammo on the westfront, was, after examing (Heereswaffenamt)destroyed ennemy Tanks, they found out that the subcaliberrounds made in the most circumstances only minor holes without a serius damage to the tanks. Sometimes the bullet went out of the other side. So they decided to use AP ammo with HE filler.

Even with a shortage on Tungsten, it was easier to produce some Tungsten ammo per tank as to change to bigger calibers like to put a 88 gun on the Panther or the many try`s to field the 128mm gun on some chassis.

Its a miracle to me, why all german Tanks pop up, after a K round penetrats it. May you loose some men one or two...but you can still fight if there is no serious damage, its a different thing wen a ap with filler explode inside a small steel box...

[Michael Emrys]

Can anyone tell me if there was any experimentation by either side with putting a tungsten cap on a steel shot?

Michael

[K_Tiger]

For what a tungsten cap?? there r many reason for a ballistic cap, one to become better aerodynamic = more MV, a other with a soft material to prevent the bullet to reccochet on sloped armor.

Also, tungsten is a really heavy material in weight so i think it would make the bullet a bit nose heavy...and again..to expensive and rare.

[Mattias]

Originally posted by K_Tiger:

The most reason why the germans use only AP ammo on the westfront, was, after examing (Heereswaffenamt)destroyed ennemy Tanks, they found out that the subcaliberrounds made in the most circumstances only minor holes without a serius damage to the tanks. Sometimes the bullet went out of the other side. So they decided to use AP ammo with HE filler.

K_Tiger,

Could you give a source for this information? I was under the distinct impression that HE fillings were not used in late, say second half, war AP rounds, as they decrease the ability of the round to defeat armour. And in some cases completely negates this ability if the tank that is hit has spaced armour.

The purpose of the tungsten is the same as with depleted uranium today, it is a very dense material giving a high weight that carries a lot of kinetic energy on to a small impact area.

I'm not sure how a cap would help other than adding some of that extra energy carried.

The reason the use of tungsten in projectiles was stopped was not because they ran out, as such. Tungsten was vital in producing tools for drilling in and cutting metal. Large quantities of low calibre tungsten ammunition was dismantled and the metal used to cover these, at the time, more pressing needs.

M.

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by Michael emrys:

Can anyone tell me if there was any experimentation by either side with putting a tungsten cap on a steel shot?

Michael

That would not be useful. Tungsteen is not good because it is hard. It is good because of its mass and it doesn't break up as easily as steel, although it is softer. Using it for a cap would just make it fly away on impact.

I would be extremly grateful for substanciated numbers which would allow us to argue with BTS about knockout probablity on penetration of small rounds.

[K_Tiger]

Mattias:

The examination and decission comes after the Allied landings in the normandy. So we can count it "late in the war".

Dont ask me where i read it and i havent the time to search around for it ...sorry..

[Claus B]

Originally posted by Mattias:

Could you give a source for this information? I was under the distinct impression that HE fillings were not used in late, say second half, war AP rounds, as they decrease the ability of the round to defeat armour. And in some cases completely negates this ability if the tank that is hit has spaced armour.[/QB]

The standard German APCBC round, PzGr 39, had HE filler basically from start of the war to the end.

The US and USSR also used armour piercing ammunition with HE filler until the end of the war. The British used solid shot, and when given US type ammunition, removed the filler (and supposedly replaced it with inert material.

Why do you think otherwise? Source?

Claus B

[Mattias]

My source for having, I now realise, an incorrect impression? I don't know, eh, could that be it

I was interested in the source of the comparison K_tiger mentioned, between behind armour effects of standard AP, with HE as it is, and what I assume to be Pz.Gr. 40 type ammunition. More so than to actually questioning the HE filler bit.

--

M.