Max range of 88 gun (historical references wanted)

[Pascal DI FOLCO]

Hi,

I'm just wondering how far did the (in)famous acht-acht "real" range was - in direct fire.

I've read that some kills were reported at 5 km, but I doubt it was really possible to see, yet more aim anything at that distance...

Was that just boasting, as Germans often did ?incidental hits ? Did it occur "often" enough to be something else than exception ?

Grogs ?

[ December 16, 2002, 05:51 AM: Message edited by: Pascal DI FOLCO ]

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by Pascal DI FOLCO:

Hi,

I'm just wondering how far did the (in)famous acht-acht "real" range was - in direct fire.

I've read that some kills were reported at 5 km, but I doubt it was really possible to see, yet more aim anything at that distance...

Was that just boasting, as Germans often did ?incidental hits ? Did it occur "often" enough to be something else than exception ?

Grogs ?

Just getting a line-of-sight to a tank at 5000m is an exception, never mind a hit and a kill. Nonetheless, rare events do happen if you wait long enough, and the whole of WW2 constitutes a large sample space.

I don't have any references to hand about long-range 88 kills, but on June 9th "A" Squadron of 4/7th Dragoon Guards killed a Panther at about 4,500 yards with 75mm HE.

All the best,

John.

[Andreas]

Longest kill range in DF I read about was 7km on a T34 in the Caucasus. First round brew-up. The reason given for the accuracy was the very clear mountain air, and the fact that there was a significant height difference between the gun and then tank's position. Not sure if it is a fairy tale though.

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by Andreas:

Longest kill range in DF I read about was 7km on a T34 in the Caucasus. First round brew-up. The reason given for the accuracy was the very clear mountain air, and the fact that there was a significant height difference between the gun and then tank's position. Not sure if it is a fairy tale though.

It would be nice to be able to confirm or deny it, as the range figure is tantalisingly close to the longest-range first-round kill from Operation Granby, and a couple of klicks further than the longest tank kill from the same war.

All the best,

John.

[Andreas]

I'll have a dig.

[Hunter]

During Feb 43, SE of Kharkov:

"From the elevated Donez Bank, the 1. Flakabteilung LAH (under Dr. Loenicker) used its 8.8cm Flak guns and its heavy range finder to achieve targeted firing on the Russian tanks from a distance of between 6 and 9 kilometres. The Kompanie was able to set nine tanks on fire and drive the rest back into the balkas (depressions - ed). It must have given the Russian tank crews, so certain of their victory, panic attacks to be shot at from an unknown location".

Indeed.

Taken from the Leibstandarte III : Rudolf Lehmann by Fedorowicz Publishing.

Hunter

[Pascal DI FOLCO]

Originally posted by John D Salt:

Just getting a line-of-sight to a tank at 5000m is an exception, never mind a hit and a kill. Nonetheless, rare events do happen if you wait long enough, and the whole of WW2 constitutes a large sample space.

I don't have any references to hand about long-range 88 kills, but on June 9th "A" Squadron of 4/7th Dragoon Guards killed a Panther at about 4,500 yards with 75mm HE.

All the best,

John.[/QB]

Hey, at such distance the shot should have arrived with quite an angle, and struck the top of the Panther ! That's more like an indirect fire result than a direct one (a direct 75 HE shot has no chance of killing a Panther ...)

Funny ...

Hunter,

Your references are welcome, now was it real or did the authors add some kilometers to make it more "ubermensch-ish" (superhuman) ? That's the trick with German accounts, they often overstated their successes ...

Thanks to all for the informative replies.

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by Pascal DI FOLCO:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by John D Salt:

[snips]I don't have any references to hand about long-range 88 kills, but on June 9th "A" Squadron of 4/7th Dragoon Guards killed a Panther at about 4,500 yards with 75mm HE.

All the best,

John.

Hey, at such distance the shot should have arrived with quite an angle, and struck the top of the Panther ! That's more like an indirect fire result than a direct one (a direct 75 HE shot has no chance of killing a Panther ...)

[/QB]</font>

[jiggles]

Hey, I like this thread!

When do we get off-map direct AT fire modelled in CMBB???

[Hunter]

Pascal,

Re: German observer / accounts and exaggeration:

I don't know how to tell. The account is clear and often repeated, but there is no real way of knowing. I'm sure the author (who was in the area) would not be happy to see me say that

Maybe one day I will visit the area and try and understand the ground more closely. It would be nice to be able to see where the LOS extends to, and where the exit points from the Balkas are.

Hunter

[francky]

Do you want to know :

- the best shot ever seen at the longest range ?

or

- the technical ability of the 88 ?

Very interesting topic, but I have no historical references !

[JonS]

Damn my poor memory and slipshod referencing habits!

Having said that, I recall discussion on this forum of an engagement between an 88 and some British armour (??Honeys??) in the desert. I can't recall the range, although 14km springs to mind for some reason. However, I'm very confident that I have a faulty spring on that score Anyway, the range was 'long', and after bracketing they acheived a kill. Apparently.

With regard to that story, I often wondered why the British tankies didn't just drive away when rounds started spudding in around them ...

Regards

JonS

[ December 16, 2002, 05:10 PM: Message edited by: JonS ]

[meldorian]

You have to keep in mind that the 88mm Flak had been desinged to kill high flying planes. It just had to have optics capable of targeting things several kilometers away. So if the crew got a line of sight to a tank 5 km away, I don't see any problem at all with the gun hitting the tank, at least *sometimes*. The rest depends on the tank's armor.

[Olle Petersson]

Hitting a target at long range require high precision;

- gun mount.

- gun barrel.

- gun sight.

- ammunition.

- range finder.

The FlAK gun battery had all of this.

In addition to this you need a steady weather.

I recall reading that in the desert the typical hit probability was about 10% against tanks at 2km range. (Since the British tanks didn't have any weapon against soft targets at that range the FlAK crews could take their time and spend lots of ammo on each target...)

Cheers

Olle

[Guest Mike]

Originally posted by John D Salt:

Exactly right -- the regimental history describes it as "rather a lucky HE shot",

Typical stiff upper lip Brit understatement.

I recall reading some stuff in a book on Korea where the Brit forces there were forever bitching about the lack of support from their American operational superiors.

The Brits would ring up for some arty or air supoprt or reinforcemnts, or the Yanks would ring them to see what was happening and het cnversation would be somethign like:

"I say old chap - things are a bit sticky up here."

"Y'all be alrite there?"

"well things could be worse I s'pose".

"OK - you hang in there then"

click.

Which is the Brit saying "we're in eth ****", the Yank sayuing "What does that mean? Do you need some help?" and both of them not understanding each other in the least!!