CMBB - Im lost without my Piat

[Pud]

With CMBO I used to hunt the german armour with that wonderous British invention the Piat. With CMBB im lost as to how to kill german armour, most russian tanks (pre 44) seem incapable of penetrating armour and the infantry seem to have only vodka leftovers to fling. I have begun taking engineers with their demo packs to try and kill armour.

The axis are still the same as they have fausts/schreks to use.

What methods are others employing with the Russian infantry? It seems im forced to buy a T34/57 (or SU122/152) and rely on that instead of infantry (as I did in CMBO). Heaven help me if it dies early.

[Tigrii]

Tank Hunters and Flamethrowers are quite effective defensively against tanks, but they have to be within 25-30 meters or so to operate effectively.

[NewSocialistMan]

you'll have to purchase AT guns. I would suggest the Zis 57mm. Works wonder even on KT sidearmor.

[Ex Bellator]

Well Pud, courtesy of the mine of useless information on the General Forum, you can have one with you wherever you are if you click this link!.

Not a lot of use regarding your question, but then again you're probably getting used to that

[Nippy]

The Soviet AT rifles will also put the hurt on the Pz-III and below, provided you can get a side shot.

[Chad Harrison]

I miss my zooks.

Close assault is the name of the game now for the Russians. Dont underestimate a lot of grenades, and especially demo charges.

ATR and Ampulets also can be quite effective when used in mass.

Chad

[meldorian]

Hi!

I have the same problem with the Russians. Their infantry cannot harm the German tanks.

Concerning infantry close assault, have you actually tried it successfully? I remember that one QB vs. a human opponent where I had a guards SMG/LMG platoon, all regulars. We were playing in 1945. They had their hand grenades and a few molotov cocktails, my opponent had this Lynx standing around next to the wood my Russians were hiding in. I sneaked up on him with the whole platoon, distance was less than 20 m. They threw their stuff at the PZ II........and nothing happened! I got three or four messages saying "shot deflected" and that's it! The Lynx retreated, opened fire from between 25 and 50 m and routed the platoon.

By now, I have given up on killing German tanks with anything but armor. The AT-guns (with rarity on) are so expensive that you can as well buy a T-34, unless you want to get a 45mm, which is nearly useless.

Of course, there are those AT-rifles. But I had one ATR hit a self propelled gun (sigsomething, with a 15 cm gun) nearly a dozen times and nothing happened, inspite of at least 5 penetrations.

The one thing I have not tried yet are those tank hunter teams and Ampoulets (sp?). How close do you need to get to the tank to stand any chance? And do they work against Pz IVs, StuGs, and Cats?

[Mud]

Tank hunters aren't necessarily better off -- in the CD scenarios where I've noticed them they get PPSh and molotovs, but nothing as nice as, say, a Panzerfaust. Ergo they still need to get extremely close before they have a decent chance to knock out... a PzII, heh. And that vehicle better be buttoned up, AND it better be isolated, because as the team unhides to begin its Assault, it's going to become a bullet magnet.

Ampoulets seem pretty inaccurate (molotovs aren't precision projectiles), but if the conditions are right (dry, hot) and the target's immobilized then maybe even a near-miss will start a fire that will cause abandonment. Hopefully.

I think, 'tho, that as the Russians, unless you're facing only light armor you need to rely mostly on your own tanks/TDs, AT guns (e.g. 57mm long), and -- if you've got it -- air support. I've pulled off close-assault kills, but it's very unreliable and not something to try unless you're desperate e.g. "A Deadly Affair". Light, esp. open-topped armor risks being killed by PTRD/PTRS (death by a thousand pin-pricks), mortar fire or even a Maxim (open-topped at least -- soft kill).

[YankeeDog]

Infantry close assaults on Tanks with no AT 'specials' was a desperation tactic in CMBO. This doesn't seem to have changed in CMBB. Molotovs seem to noticably improve close assault chances only against light and early war armor. You may be slightly more likely to take out a Tiger with a molotov than a grenade, but not enough to make it something to try except in desperation. If you have to try to assault German tanks with plain Russian infantry squads, I would use as many squads as possible (preferably a whole platoon) from as many different angles as possible.

with as has already been noted, the chance an individual ATR round scoring a kill is slight. As such, the trick with ATRs seems to be to get a situation where you can score *many* penetrations on a tank without the ATR(s) being spotted. As such, be careful of opening up with the ATR too close to the tanks - basically, you want to try to keep the ATR as far away from the tank as possible and still have a decent chance of hitting and penetrating. To have a reasonable chance of penetration, flank/rear hits are a necessity against anything bigger than a PzII. I have managed to score kills on German tanks up to the PzIV with ATRs by trapping the tank in crossfire between 3-4 ATRs. Most of the time, the ATRs seem to score a 'soft' kill - once the crew takes two or more casualties, they will bail out.

Against against Tigers and Panthers, your ATRs of considerably less use. Against Tigers, ATRs can't penetrate the armor from any angle, so the best you can hope for is a gun or immobilization hit, which is pretty unlikely. Theoretically, a PTRD/PTRS can penetrate the side or rear armor of a Panther, but just barely, and I haven't managed to kill a Panther with ATRs yet.

One additional suggestion: If you're looking for a more powerful AT gun than the 45mm, try the 76.2mm L/52 GP gun. While not really an AT gun, it's reasonably priced(47 points at regular). It's also available pretty early on - you can first buy it in October 1941 (albiet at a high rarity cost of 65%), and it settles down to a pretty low rarity of +10% by June of 1942. It's no great shakes when compared with the German 75mm ATG, but it's a heck of a lot better than the 45mm, and if you're lucky, you just might get a few tungsten rounds with it. As an added bonus, it comes with a big ammo load and has good anti-infantry capability. At any rate, given the very high rarity and higher base cost of the 57mm gun, I'd consider the 76.2mm L/52 a better alternative.

Cheers,

YD

[Bruceov]

The Russians deployed Bzookas by lend lease. Why arent they in the game.

[Nippy]

I have managed to score kills on German tanks up to the PzIV with ATRs by trapping the tank in crossfire between 3-4 ATRs.

ATR Rifles should be deployed in teams of 3 with a DP LMG team to cover them.

One additional suggestion: If you're looking for a more powerful AT gun than the 45mm, try the 76.2mm L/52 GP gun.

76.2mm M1936 F22 will kick the ever loving crap out of just about all (early War) german armor at ranges of over 500m. Cheap and somewhat accurate its worth the extra points over the POS 45mm AT gun.

On a final note, when it comes to Soviet AT weapons, be it AT guns, Tank hunters, or ART rifles, always use the buddy system. Lone AT guns are dead AT guns

[YankeeDog]

Originally posted by Bruceov:

The Russians deployed Bzookas by lend lease. Why arent they in the game.

1. They weren't sent that many - even if they were in the game, you'd see a very high rarity factor.

2. There is little, if any, evidence that the Russians ever deployed and significant number of the zooks they got. Apparently, they didn't like the thing very much. The russians seemed to much prefer the larger Panzershreck they occasionally captured off the Germans.

While finding hard evidence is difficult, I would argue that it would be more appropriate to see late-war Russian soldiers carrying the occasional captured Panzerfaust and/or Shreck than a Zook (with appropriate rarity, of course). Actually, I'd like to see the zooks, too, just with a pretty high rarity.

I think the Sovs got some PIATs lend-lease as well. Again, though, I don't think it was very many, and I don't know of any evidence that the ones they got were used in any number.

Cheers,

YD

[Strontium Dog]

Originally posted by YankeeDog:

The russians seemed to much prefer the larger Panzershreck they occasionally captured off the Germans.

The russians also made quite widespread use of captured panzerfausts (and they captured a lot) in the final stages of the war. They were favoured for blasting holes through walls during house to house combat. The faust made a convenient hole for the Russian troops and also cleared the room on the other side of any resistance. Is this relfected in CMBB at all?

[Mud]

Strontium Dog --

Individual walls aren't modeled, so you can't blast new doorways and passages no matter what you have -- all you can do to a building is set it on fire or level it.

[NewSocialistMan]

I'm not sure all of this dissing of the 45mm AT is really deserved. Sure it can't do phallus to a tank from the front, but a well placed flank shot on anything up to an early PzIV is quite likely to turn the fascist cabin occupants into Hamburg Steak. As such, I've found that the key to correctly deploying them has been overlapping fields of fire and judicious use of the "covered arc" command so that they don't take shots they shouldn't.

Though I agree that the 76.2mm AT does glorious work for the Motherland, the 45 has a higher ROF and pivot rate. It is also much more difficult to spot due to its characteristic lack of smoke.

My green 45mm AT placed near the rubble took out all three PzIII's in the well known early war scenario (won't mention it by name as not to spoil it for those who haven't played it yet) in less than 60 seconds.

[demoss]

Well, NewSocialistMan, if you look at the 1941 penetration numbers for the 45 mm AT vs. the universally-disparaged 37mm PaK 36 "door-knocker," you'll see that the 45 is inferior. Once you get better ammo in 1942, I'd agree, it's an okay gun, and if you can buy them in quantity AND know how to use them, they'll do you good. It bites in 1941, though. Fortunately, so does much of the German armor - until you get to about the III H or the IV E.

Your points on how to use it are certainly sound, however.

[edited for clarification]

[ November 26, 2002, 04:46 PM: Message edited by: demoss ]

[Nippy]

My green 45mm AT placed near the rubble took out all three PzIII's in the well known early war scenario (won't mention it by name as not to spoil it for those who haven't played it yet) in less than 60 seconds.

Ahhhhh, but try editing the senario and making it take place one year earlier. Here is what you get:

63mm Armor Penatration at 100m with AP - This is the unedited senario.

37mm Armor Penatration at 100m with AP - This is if you set the senario back one year.

In 41' I usually pair a 76.2mm and 45mm AT gun together. 76 takes on the tanks and the 45 engages any weaker armored cars or very light tanks, hence freeing up the 76 to take out the PZ IV and Stugs.

[White Phosphorus]

Maybe the Soviets should get a "Random foreign AT weapon" once in a while, kind of like the Germans get the PPSh.

[Pud]

I like the idea of a small chance of a Faust. Sounds like it will add balance and still be historically correct. I do note that Romanians (allied) get fausts (44 on)